% high quality F1

[heckel90]

Hi all.

I want to discuss the % of "good quality" F1 from wilds and other questions as well. IMO (my likes) good quality F1 or wilds are the discus with a nice shape (rounded and not too long) in balance, nice combination of patterns and colors. like the shape of the best domestic with the patterns of the best royal wild or solid wild. I repeat, these are my likes because in the wild the discus like that are a low % comparing with most of them. nature selects very diferent than us for better generations.

here questions for everybody but specialy for people who breed nice wilds:

1.what % of high quality F1 can produce a high quality wild pare?
2.what % of F1 royal blue can produce a wild royal blue pare?
3.a good quality pare can produce homogeneous discus or produce a lot of diferent discus in the same batch?
4. can a "low quality pare" produce high quality F1?
5. can a solid color wild pare produce F1 with patterns?

these questions are about how the wild blood can reacts in breeding.


thanks in advance

Martin

[vss]

never had any wild nor a fan of them. from what i saw wild has a much larger gene pool than I thought. Most pure wild blood F1 results look kind of disappointing in phenotype regardless how good looking their parents are, plus they seem to be quite hard to raise. Maybe they have great genetic value, but for newbies like me I really don't know how to tell or appreciate.

here are some breeding log kept by a japanese breeder, some are wild x wild, some are wild x domestic.
http://homepage2.nifty.com/discus-br...ge3-breed.html

Xiaofei

[heckel90]

If you see Sabby and Hek´s facebook pages (it´s not plublicity!)...you could change your mind. there are really impressive wilds threre and some uniques discus. And so much discus to discover!
I agree with the other part.

thanks for the link Xiaofei

[Discus Origins]

I will try to answer to the best of my experience:

1.what % of high quality F1 can produce a high quality wild pare?
I am going to assume the actual translation here is what % high quality F1 can be produced by a high quality pair. In my experience there are always going to be a small percentage of culls with defects (gill plate, fin, twisted mouth, etc). F1 raised in safe domestic environments generally will all grow up with nice shape and color with proper care. To define high quality F1 you'll have to specify what you are looking for - shape, color, pattern, etc.

2.what % of F1 royal blue can produce a wild royal blue pare?
If you have two royal parents you will end up with greater than 50% F1 with royal pattern

3.a good quality pare can produce homogeneous discus or produce a lot of diferent discus in the same batch?

Remember, most wilds in the brown, blue, and green varieties the highly patterned fish are usually the dominant males with a few exceptions of dominant highly patterned females. So normally a pair of wilds would be a royal/semi royal male and solid female. That is what I have usually ended up with and the production is heterogenous. 25% solid, 50% semi royal, 25% royal pattern. With spotted fish like the RSG, you'll also get a similar distribution of very little spotting, most will be mid level spotting, and the 20-25% that will be highly spotted

4. can a "low quality pare" produce high quality F1?
I believe as long as the 'low quality' is not genetic and environmentally produced a 'low quality' pair will still produce a percentage of young that will be highly patterned and 'high quality'

5. can a solid color wild pare produce F1 with patterns?
Yes, solid wilds can still come from parents that one or both had striations. The fish can carry the genes for striation expression

[heckel90]

I will try to answer to the best of my experience:

1.what % of high quality F1 can produce a high quality wild pare?
I am going to assume the actual translation here is what % high quality F1 can be produced by a high quality pair. In my experience there are always going to be a small percentage of culls with defects (gill plate, fin, twisted mouth, etc). F1 raised in safe domestic environments generally will all grow up with nice shape and color with proper care. To define high quality F1 you'll have to specify what you are looking for - shape, color, pattern, etc.

2.what % of F1 royal blue can produce a wild royal blue pare?
If you have two royal parents you will end up with greater than 50% F1 with royal pattern

3.a good quality pare can produce homogeneous discus or produce a lot of diferent discus in the same batch?

Remember, most wilds in the brown, blue, and green varieties the highly patterned fish are usually the dominant males with a few exceptions of dominant highly patterned females. So normally a pair of wilds would be a royal/semi royal male and solid female. That is what I have usually ended up with and the production is heterogenous. 25% solid, 50% semi royal, 25% royal pattern. With spotted fish like the RSG, you'll also get a similar distribution of very little spotting, most will be mid level spotting, and the 20-25% that will be highly spotted

4. can a "low quality pare" produce high quality F1?
I believe as long as the 'low quality' is not genetic and environmentally produced a 'low quality' pair will still produce a percentage of young that will be highly patterned and 'high quality'

5. can a solid color wild pare produce F1 with patterns?
Yes, solid wilds can still come from parents that one or both had striations. The fish can carry the genes for striation expression

thanks for correcting me what I meant to say.


1. I usually see a lot pics of wild discus on the net and IMO high quality F1 is complex to answer but this would be my totally subjetive idea:
length: genes for 15-20cm in adults, less in greens.
shape: as rounded as possible like your avatar. not applied for greens.
eyes: as red and small as possible. the size not for greens.
color: a lot of variable here but in general "intense colors": as red as possible in solid browns with bright blue in the borders; full patterns in royals (more contrast red-blue the better), more red spots in RSG with bright colors. every strain has its own variables so it´s too complex to explain here, it´s for the judges.
(the opposite to all of this would be F1 with a long body, a large and yellow eye and light colors).

2. that´s a good % with full patterns.

3. my question is not well done but I understand what happens in royals and RSG, thanks! I did not know that.

4 and 5: this is good! some "ugly"(with good genes) and solid wilds can produce something different and better...


thank you Mark for taking the time to respond and show your experience. I know you have had a lot wild discus and have bred them too.
by the way what was your biggest surprise breeding wild discus? and which was the ugliest wild producing something unique and good?

Martin

[Discus Origins]

thanks for correcting me what I meant to say.


1. I usually see a lot pics of wild discus on the net and IMO high quality F1 is complex to answer but this would be my totally subjetive idea:
length: genes for 15-20cm in adults, less in greens.
shape: as rounded as possible like your avatar. not applied for greens.
eyes: as red and small as possible. the size not for greens.
color: a lot of variable here but in general "intense colors": as red as possible in solid browns with bright blue in the borders; full patterns in royals (more contrast red-blue the better), more red spots in RSG with bright colors. every strain has its own variables so it´s too complex to explain here, it´s for the judges.
(the opposite to all of this would be F1 with a long body, a large and yellow eye and light colors).

2. that´s a good % with full patterns.

3. my question is not well done but I understand what happens in royals and RSG, thanks! I did not know that.

4 and 5: this is good! some "ugly"(with good genes) and solid wilds can produce something different and better...


thank you Mark for taking the time to respond and show your experience. I know you have had a lot wild discus and have bred them too.
by the way what was your biggest surprise breeding wild discus? and which was the ugliest wild producing something unique and good?

Martin

My biggest surprise breeding wild discus was how much better the wild pairs were as parents than domestic strains. The 'ugliest' wilds would have been a pair of blues I had about 20 years ago that had bad shape, only a few blue striations in the forehead area and the rest brown. When they spawned I got a small percentage of almost royal F1s that were amazing. That was a nice surprise

[heckel90]

thanks Mark for sharing it!