Hekel Altums

[Ken]

Very nice fish

[angelfishusa]

Very nice fish

Thanks. that's one of 7 confirmed pairs so far out of 44 adults.
expecting my first spawn tonight. But they've let me down a few times already.
David

[a volar]

Nice altums David..... Put me in the list for fry.

[angelfishusa]

Nice altums David..... Put me in the list for fry.

Thanks. I wouldn't have them or have met Jeffrey and Tony if it wasn't for Kraig!

[plecocicho]

David, those f1 LOOK like altum offspring. I would never guessed the first one were their siblings, they have nothing in common.

[fredyx]

Wow, there's a huge difference with those in the first picture!!

[angelfishusa]

Its not about missing bar, its about mouthpart. Upturned mouth is specific for altum angel for all age classes beside fry of course.
the only other option of this fosh being the real altums are that those are mutants (with deformed mouth acording to real altums of course)

I know what you are saying, and that is my fault for not taking very good care of these. they arrived to me and I was planning on growing them out work with on a certain project. I was too busy with other projects and did not take proper care of them at all. I am so busy working with my other 44 adults, and new strains of the phippine blue angels, I just left them in a small tank for a year, with neglect. As far as not looking like true altums, they would have except for the bars. You as well as I know that captive breeding has many different effects on wild angelfish. Environment plays a big roll in their looks and changes from generation to generation. In any event, I do believe that you will agree that my 44 adult altums are true altums. i know this 100% for a fact. and I'm sure thru the generations F2, F3, F4 they will change a lot. I have been breeding and raising angelfish for over 40 years now. And I have seen all sorts of strange developments in working with some wilds and even domestics. That is why I continually cross back to wilds when possible to keep my stock as close as possible to the original beautiful Angelfish I knew from the 60's and 70's!

[angelfishusa]

David, those f1 LOOK like altum offspring. I would never guessed the first one were their siblings, they have nothing in common.

Great, so you agree. I have 44 all identical to those. I took very good care of them, fed them great, water changes. Took better care of them than my children! ha. In fact I saw fish from the same parents during my visit with Tony earlier this month. Mine are at least 50% larger, and look different than his. His still have the juvenile type shape and are 6 months older. he has had 3 spawns from his already, and I'm still struggling. Now I had to get 6 180 gallon tanks to house mine. as my tanks are too small. I will also set up 2 pairs in 125 gallon tanks, and wait and wait and wait! But to back you up.... looking at the adults of Tony's and looking at my adults, they do not look the same. It is all environmental. Has nothing to do with genes, or anything else. It is one thing finding a wild fish and saying it is or is not an Altum But with captive bred or tank raised fish nobody should say it is or isn't real altum. I know for a fact, where the parents came from, and my offspring are from those parents. So why would anyone argue that if i know this 1st hand? anyway wish me luck. I'm hoping when they are 3 to 3 1/2 years old I will have enough altum fry to supply the world! just a dream, but I know I will get some spawns soon. It has been a life long dream!

[plecocicho]

You will have to wait 3 years. I have a feeling that real altuma and real scalare(rio negro altum) need at least 3 years to the maturaty and repdroductive age.

[Discus Origins]

Dale Jordan just got viable spawns from a pair of true Altums that he's had for several years and I know the source in Colombia that they came from. I will be getting a group of these F1s and raising them to see what they turn out to look like. I'm curious as to why Asian bred 'altums' have some deviations from wild characteristics in the F1 generation while European bred Altums retain those same characteristics well into the F5-6 generations.

Not to stir the fire but I have had personal conversations with Heiko Bleher who has seen most of these altums bred in Asia and he doesn't believe they are pure bred. He has nothing to gain or lose by saying this but coming from him that's a pretty powerful statement.

[fredyx]

You probably know this video, is a german breeder that has lots of experience:

[angelfishusa]

Dale Jordan just got viable spawns from a pair of true Altums that he's had for several years and I know the source in Colombia that they came from. I will be getting a group of these F1s and raising them to see what they turn out to look like. I'm curious as to why Asian bred 'altums' have some deviations from wild characteristics in the F1 generation while European bred Altums retain those same characteristics well into the F5-6 generations.

Not to stir the fire but I have had personal conversations with Heiko Bleher who has seen most of these altums bred in Asia and he doesn't believe they are pure bred. He has nothing to gain or lose by saying this but coming from him that's a pretty powerful statement.

And I was at the farm. and they are true Altums. They were imported by the Tans. 100% wild altums. And I have committed to purchase all the rest of the F1 Spawn from Dale, plus all the rest of the spawns he has. His altums are not the same as the Tony Tan Altums. they are two completely different kinds. And as far as I can see, mine look exactly the same as the wild altums. There is no difference at all. Heiko, I believe as also said that some of the German Altums are not 100% altum. But you must remember, Heiko knows wilds. he spends all his time researching wild fish. Once a wild fish is captive bred, it can change according to it's enviroment. Heiko also said that Anthony's Heckels were crosses, until I corrected him where he congratulated Atilla in Hungary for his successful Heckel spawn. The fish that Heiko said were Heckel crosses were the actual fish from Atilla's spawn. So whether Angelfish, Discus, or any other wild fish. Once captive bred no one should say whether or not they are crosses, or not. Only the breeder will know for sure. And I assure you, Tony Tan Altums are 100% Altums.

[angelfishusa]

You will have to wait 3 years. I have a feeling that real altuma and real scalare(rio negro altum) need at least 3 years to the maturaty and repdroductive age.

Others have had spawns, but i don't think any fry were raised, from the same batch of Altums that I have received. Jeffrey has had 3 spawns from his F1's that are 5-6 months older than mine (but much smaller!). They are absolutely mature, and it's just a matter of tweeking things a bit for them to spawn.....

[blueluv]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like their are two male and one female in the first pic?

[angelfishusa]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it looks like their are two male and one female in the first pic?

THE Picture I posted is just 1 pair male/female. which picture I you referring to?