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Thread: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

  1. #1
    Registered Member dkeef's Avatar
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    Default Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    My automatic daily 80gal/day wc system planning phase is now complete.
    It consists of digital aquatic reefkeeper controller, auto topoff system with dual float switchs, 3 stage sediment/dual carbon block filtration, float valves, water level sensor alarm, emergency flood prevention overflow drain on water holding tank etc.
    system will pump/refill 5gal every hour for 16 hrs during non-co2 injection time period and during light off period.
    I found ton of info from saltwater people and from joey diy guy.
    But im curious to know why discus keepers who in my opinion would benefit the most from this system are mostly doing wc manually?
    Reefers do water change once or biweekly at most and only 25% or so.
    Yet many set up auto wc systems. But discus keepers who change massive amount and keep most frequent wc schedule arent getting into this.
    It will save so much time imo.
    Someone fill me in here?

    And if the reason is being just worried about something going wrong such as flooding etc then thats not a valid concern cuz there are absolutely ways to totally prevent any disasters.

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    Registered Member Trier20's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    My honest answer is I'm a dumb *** and wouldn't be able to figure it out. Lol plus not doing auto wcs allows you to get all the detritus out of the tank.
    -Brandon
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    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    You'll have to do some searching, but I think it's been shown that changing small amounts of water over time does not have the same impact as doing one large water change. In a non-planted tank this would be easy to monitor using a simple nitrate test kit. But like Brandon mentions, most automated drip-type systems do not siphon feces and uneaten food. Those two things are contributing to the DOC build-up in your tank. If you don't remove them, the water quality continues to break down. This is the same reason why dirty filters and substrate can wreck your water quality even if you're changing water regularly.

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    Registered Member dkeef's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    I agree on detritus part. And still think vacuuming is needed. But u can easily get eheim battery vaccum along with auto changer. Some ppl design auto system where they pump tank turbulence to collect the detritus during wc. U can get creative.
    But this will significantly reduce time to manually do it.
    Now this question pertains more to discus adult show tanks.
    In breeder tanks where u feed multiple times per day and frys produces ton of waste, id rather do manual siphoning also.

    It took me 2-3 days of googling and youtubing to figure this out. Its not hard to do at all. But i admit the first day i was clueless.

  5. #5
    Registered Member dkeef's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    You'll have to do some searching, but I think it's been shown that changing small amounts of water over time does not have the same impact as doing one large water change. In a non-planted tank this would be easy to monitor using a simple nitrate test kit. But like Brandon mentions, most automated drip-type systems do not siphon feces and uneaten food. Those two things are contributing to the DOC build-up in your tank. If you don't remove them, the water quality continues to break down. This is the same reason why dirty filters and substrate can wreck your water quality even if you're changing water regularly.
    Got a question. So a heavily planted tank like mine where so much plants covers all substrates and with lack of siphoning, is it guarantee that water will continue to go bad regardless of water changes?

    Wouldnt the detritus become plant food and not accumulate?

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    Registered Member Kal-El's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Quote Originally Posted by dkeef View Post
    Got a question. So a heavily planted tank like mine where so much plants covers all substrates and with lack of siphoning, is it guarantee that water will continue to go bad regardless of water changes?

    Wouldnt the detritus become plant food and not accumulate?
    Run your system for a few months and you'll know the answer. It can be done it just won't give you the same healthy results as manually removing large water daily or every other day. If keeping adults it should be fine, but if you are growing out Juvie they will not grow to there full potential.

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    Registered Member Northwoods Discus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    The cost of a system like that on multiple tanks would be prohibitive, all discus keepers end up with multiple tanks. Technology tends to break down over time. Keep it simple stupid (kiss). Detritus takes a very long time to break down into material usable by the plants. Just some reasons not to use a system like that. Now that plus a full typical water change weekly in an adult tank would work well.
    When people build fish rooms the full water changes are made quite simple with drains and water storage with easy pumping to the tanks. I have mine plumbed to flip a switch and fill. I am there to watch it but I don't lift buckets anymore.
    Sometimes you sit and think, sometimes you just sit.
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    Registered Member fredyx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    You'll have to do some searching, but I think it's been shown that changing small amounts of water over time does not have the same impact as doing one large water change. In a non-planted tank this would be easy to monitor using a simple nitrate test kit. But like Brandon mentions, most automated drip-type systems do not siphon feces and uneaten food. Those two things are contributing to the DOC build-up in your tank. If you don't remove them, the water quality continues to break down. This is the same reason why dirty filters and substrate can wreck your water quality even if you're changing water regularly.
    You're right to reduce concentration of toxics in water over time is more effective to change 100% once every 4 days than changing 25% every day. I made myself a graphic to illustrate this idea (if you want I can ellaborate a little bit more, but this concept is not new):

    Legend tranlated to english: blue 25% daily, red 50% every other day, green 100% every 4 days. We consider a constant acumulation rate of waste (10 ppm per day) and that the water added is perfectly clean of polutants.
    Last edited by fredyx; 08-13-2013 at 09:09 AM.

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    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Like has been said above.....this has been tried by lots of people. It has never been able to produce the results that people wanted. You will end up spending more money, wasting more water, and having fish that you really can't be proud of. Now having said that it is your fish and your money so if you want to do this than please do. Take good pictures and take real measurements of your fish. Better yet bring some of them to NADA and see how they compare to other fish.

    Good luck.

    -john
    Please check out http://forum.discusnada.org/

    SOS Crew Texas

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    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    There is also an article in the Simply Discus library on this....

    http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/..._formula.shtml

    The Simply Discus library is located on the Simply Discus main page and has tons of information (some outdated).
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


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    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Pat folks can't even find the search field on the top of this page....there is no way they can find the library.....lol.

    -john
    Please check out http://forum.discusnada.org/

    SOS Crew Texas

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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Auto water change system is just a method to help you delay your water change when you are busy or on a vacation. It's not a good way for long run. You still will need to scrub and clean your filter because of those waste and un eaten food. You should check your pre filter sponge in 1-2 days after water change and see how dirty it is. Don't depend on auto water change to much or you will pay heavy price.

  13. #13
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Nicholson View Post
    Pat folks can't even find the search field on the top of this page....there is no way they can find the library.....lol.

    -john
    Yea I know John. I am going to build an index with content and links to the library context so it is more accessible to simply members and hopefully gets more use.
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  14. #14
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    My implementation is very similar to yours. I simply use my controller to pump water from my holding bin to the sump three times daily. The sump contains an overflow to allow the excess water to drain to the home sewer system. I do not use any float switches and there is no need to do a ATO as the evaporation is minimal with the tank and sump covered. Personally I can't do every day WC using a hose to vacuum detris. It just won't get done. I vacuum once a week just like I do in my saltwater tanks. This is my first discus tank so I have no idea if my plan will cause poor health for the discus. Time will tell. Jerry.

  15. #15
    Registered Member fredyx's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why dont discus keepers do automatic water changes more often?

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    There is also an article in the Simply Discus library on this....

    http://www.simplydiscus.com/library/..._formula.shtml

    The Simply Discus library is located on the Simply Discus main page and has tons of information (some outdated).
    Yes as I said this is not new but a quite old discussion in aquarium maintenance (much older than my experience with discus LOL) I remember many years back (might be even before SD started I don't know) reading a transcription of a lecture on this topic from a relevant guest speaker in EEUU and I think that he projected a similar graphic on such occasion...

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