Fishless Cycle Stalled?

[Nu2Discus]

Hi pat, yes I have a sponge filter in there with air running through it. I also have an air wand about 5inches long on one end of the tank with air going through it. I'm also running an AC 110.

[Second Hand Pat]

Seems that you are running plenty of filtration. Is your water still that cloudy?

[Nu2Discus]

Yes it's still cloudy. In fact I'm betting it's worse. It seems like it gets cloudier when I add more ammonia to it.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well, since you are stuck if I was in your shoes I would be tempted to do a huge WC, add prime/safe if needed and add enough ammonia to go to 2 ppm. Are you sure you are using ammonia without anything added? like surfactants?

[Nu2Discus]

I just snapped two examples of the way the tank looks right now. These are just iphone pics, but it'll give you an idea of things anyway.

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[Nu2Discus]

Ok here's where I stand as of a few mins ago. I decided to run some tests and take some photos of the results to let you see what I'm getting. Maybe I'm not reading it properly. The colors recorded pretty accurately, maybe a bit off. But you'll the gist of things anyway.

I started off using ammonia which I bought from Ace Hardware.
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Today's results.
Test for Ph I'm calling it 8.3
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Test for nitrAte I'm calling it 0
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Test for ntrIte I'm calling it 0
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Test for ammonia in real life it was a bit darker, I'm calling it 2
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[Second Hand Pat]

I wonder if the 4 ppm on the ammonia is too strong and killing the cycle before it can even get started.

[Nu2Discus]

Now if anyone is interested in the long version of my cycling journey this is it.

I set up the quarantine tank, it's a 60 gallon tank which is bare bottom. In it I have an AC 110, one sponge filter #5, and an Eheim 300w heater, and an air wand I think 5 inches or so. I filled it with water that went through a filter that has a sediment filter and 2 carbon block filters. It removes chlorine and chloramine. It took about 7 hours to fill the tank. I tested for chlorine and chloramine in the tank, and it had none present. I let that run over night.

The next day I added 1/4 tsp Safe, let that run a bit, then added ammonia to 4 ppm. None of the parameter values changed much, but the tank started to get cloudier as the days went on. Finally at day 9 the ammonia looked a bit lighter, so I called it 3 ppm. But truth be told, it wasn't much of a change, and the tank was very cloudy. This stayed the same until day 14. On day 14 I pulled off about 60% of the water and refilled it with filtered water. I added safe again just to be sure I didn't have any chlorine or chloramine, retested, and my ammonia in the tank was 1 ppm. I left it over night to let things settle out.

The next day the level was still 1 ppm. I added more ammonia and this time stopped at about 2 ppm. The ammonia stayed at about 2 until day 19, when I thought it had dropped to 1 ppm. So I added more ammonia, and it tested out about at 2-3 ppm. It stayed there till day 22, and tested out at about 1-2 on day 22. At this point I decided to see if it would continue to drop, to make sure I was really seeing a change or if I was talking myself into it. The colors can be hard to see sometimes. Well the value didn't change basically staying 1-2 until day 26, when I decided to add more ammonia and hope for the best. I re tested, and decided it was 2 ppm, and now 2 days later today we are at day 28 and still I'm calling it 2 ppm.

But regardless of the ammonia, from the way I'm reading the test results it doesn't look like my nitrItes have formed at all. So I think I'm stalled out. What does everyone else think?

[dirtyplants]

Ugh!
Do you know what is in your tap water? You have a high pH and I am wondering what is added to the tap? I would not myself add an ammonia removing agent during a cycle. I have had the cloudiness happen many times in the past adding ammonia eliminating agent when refilling from the tap directly. Not a pretty site! or is it sight? :0 I live in an area of limestone bedrocks, making water very hard. I can only think perhaps not enough of the right type of bacteria. Your tank only used with fish friendly agents for cleaning? I would add seeded media, or even bacteria to see if it affects the cloudiness. Did you try lowering the temp? Maybe the ammonia bacteria have a hard time multiplying in high temps? Sorry I wish I had some magic bullet.

[Nu2Discus]

So at this point, do you think I should just continue on as is? Or should I add the safe start plus, or should I do a water change? I'm kind of confused as to what would be the best thing to do right now.

[dirtyplants]

At this point you can begin again or add some safe start and see if that helps, I would drop the temp to 80, if the temp doesn't help and the safe start doesn't work you can always begin again. Walk back wards so you know what will not work, try temp, then try safe start, and if that does not help begin again.

[Gorf]

Can I just check something?

Are you adding Seachem Prime? How often are you doing this?

Does your tap water contain chlorine, or chloramines?

To confirm, the cloudiness is a bacterial bloom. This is common during fishless cycling & the only effect of this is to reduce the available oxygen in the water. Sit it out & it will go in a week or so.

Run the temp at the same level as you will be in future when the tank is stocked.

Will you be sourcing your Discus locally?

[rcomeau]

Why do water changes during a fishless cycle?

The purpose is to grow bacteria which includes growing it in the water column. Cloudy water is a part of that process. All you need is patience. Why remove water that is progressing through the process with water that has not been going through the process?

Also, if you have chlorine and/or chloramine in the water that you use for the water change(s) then you could kill some of the little bacteria that has started growing in the filters.

I don't think that the typical instructions for fishless cycling include water changes while waiting for the tank to cycle. Instead, instructions typically state to do a large water change when readings indicate that it is cycled and ready for fish. That big water change at the end is needed to reset the water chemistry to prevent the PH from crashing if it is left to continue. BTW, fish seem to still suffer and die after that point. I wouldn't risk discus until well after 45 days.

A cycled tank that is cleaned too much (WC, filters cleaned, etc.) will become cloudy. That is a sign that it was cleaned too much. Doing a WC is a part of the problem, not the solution (although WCs are still necessary when fish are present while waiting for bacteria to re-grow in the filters again).

[dirtyplants]

Come to think of it my 40gal grow out tank I set up two months ago. I took a an aqua clear 75gal filter and hung it on my big tank. I seeded the AC for two months then added water to my 40 gal. It clouded up right away, so after a week, I did a partial water change thinking that perhaps I did not rinse my tank well enough, it still clouded so I just left the filter on and checked in 24 hours, found it totally cleared up.

So are you using aged water, if so how long is it aged for? Check you water department on line to see what they add to the water, or call. IMHO water changes during a cycle are the last resort. Seeding your tank with bacteria should only quicken the cycle. I personally feel you do not have enough bacteria, but we are all guessing at this point. My suggestion is to take your time, do one thing and one thing only step by step so you know what is happening and what works or does not work. The only way to fully understand what may be happening is to take each step and exhaust the measurements of that step before moving on.

I know this gives you no solutions but if you are to problem solve you must ascertain the results of each phase jumping around will only confuse the issue.

[Nu2Discus]

My water company does in fact use chloramine to disinfect our tap water. That's why I bought a filter from the Filter Guys that removes chlorine and chloramines. My water at this point is aged. It's been aging for a month already in the tank lol. But before I did anything with the tank and cycling it, I ran my tap water through the filter directly into the tank. It took over 7 hours to fill the 60 gallon tank. I let that water then run over night for about 24 hrs, with an AC 110, a sponge filter (the largest one I think it's a #5), and I also have an air wand in the tank. That sat for 24 hrs. I also checked the water in the tank after it was filled, and then again after 24 hrs for chlorine and chloramine, which tested negative, so those were not present.

I thought I'd play it extra safe, and added 1/4 tsp of Safe just for the hell of it after the water in the tank ran for 24 hrs. Then I added ammonia to 4 ppm, and let it ride for 14 days. No change, in my parameters. The only thing that happened was that the tank got so cloudy you almost couldn't see through it. At that pointing I decided to do a bit of a water change, after some people suggested to maybe do a wc. I also thought maybe the 4 ppm of ammonia might have been too high, and it was stalling the cycle. So I removed about 60% and once again added the filtered water. The water that was added once again I tested, no chlorine/chloramine. Again thinking I'd better play it safe, I added Safe 1/4 tsp just in case something slipped by. Those were the only times I used Safe.

After the water change I added more ammonia but only to 2 ppm this time thinking maybe it was too high before. The ammonia level stayed the same for the next 5 days, so now I'm 19 days in. At that point, I called my ammonia 1 ppm, and then added more ammonia and called it about 2 ppm. It stayed the same for about 4 days, now I'm at day 22, and now I tested and called it 1-2. At this point I decided to let it ride and see if it continued to decline. Why? Because the color changes are so slight and subtle I wasn't sure if I was really seeing anything or it was just wishful thinking. So I let it go until day 26, when I got annoyed after still not seeing any change, and added ammonia just for spite and see what would happen. I didn't add too much it tested out about 2ppm maybe a touch more, once agin the colors are so subtle in difference, and let this ride until yesterday. Yesterday was day 28 one full month now, and I'm still unchanged with ammonia at 2ppm.

I also don't seem to have any nitrites, so I'm not moving anywhere by the look of it. So yesterday, I just wiped the tank walls down, lowered my temp, today it's 83. I also added some floss to the AC last night just for the hell of it. I also squished the sponge filter a little and also the pre filter on the AC intake inside the tank just to be sure I'm getting flow through it. I tested my parameters again today, and I'm I shocked to report, wait for it....wait for it...... Once again..... No change. Who knew?

So I'm letting it ride for now.