How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?

[aqualogic]

Hello everyone, been lurking here, looking into Discus, trying to divulge in as much as information as possible. My primary question with looking into Discus as of late is if I can keep a single Discus in a tank.

Now I know the case with Discus, they're a shoaling fish and should be kept in tanks no less than 55 gallons and a minimum of 6 per tank. This seems to be the rule of the thumb, outside of PH levels, R/O, 80+ degree water temperature, etc.

I've read all the threads and know about the general backlash individuals get for even attempting to raise a single Discus anything below a 30 gallon.

My general question lies in the local fish shops that sell Discus in my area. Almost all of them keep their Discus in tanks no bigger than 10 gallons. Some of them are bigger than 5 inches and they're in tanks no bigger than 30 gallons by themselves. The tanks themselves all looked clean and the Discus looked generally healthy from my experience. I'm no expert, however, I frequent these shops every now and then. They're located everywhere in my area, I've been to 5 different shops, all Discus were kept in smaller tanks by themselves or 3 at the most.

Even the higher end local fish stores that have all the positive ratings keep their Discus by themselves in small tanks. They're not your typical LFS that is just trying to sell you fish. I've been frequenting these shops from time to time and I notice the same Discus still survive under these conditions. While they're probably not thriving, they're certainly surviving somehow, what's their secret?

[strawberryblonde]

No big secret, they don't keep them for the life of the discus. They sell them as quickly as possible, and if they don't sell them quickly enough they dispose of them when they die.

Can you keep a single adult discus in a 30 gallon tank alive? Sure! No way of knowing how long its life span will be, but you can do it. It's just not the optimal conditions for keeping discus and very few people here would consider doing it. It comes down to wanting to enjoy the hobby and provide the best life possible for the expensive fish you buy. But if that's what you really want to do, then go do it, no need to ask for permission. =)

[aqualogic]

How lucrative are discus to a LFS? I ask because one of the LFS sells their Discus for $40 (medium sized) while the higher end LFS sells them for $70. I can't imagine that they get them cheaper than we do, unless they breed them.

A quick search on Yelp shows the higher end LFS showcasing several single-tanked Discus with different types of community fish. Keeping Discus by themselves or outside their normal habitats can lead to stress, which can in turn, lead to disease. It seems rather risky to do in a show tank?

I only ask this question because this particular LFS seems to be a trusted source, they're in the business of building aquariums and house all different types of Discus, and seem to be doing it successfully, even though most of the advice I've researched on has advised against their methods.

[Nu2Discus]

Wow, I've never seen a LFS keeping discus in singles, in small tanks. Bettas yes, but not discus.

You ask if there is a secret to keeping discus alive all by itself, in a small tank. I don't think there is one. As long as the water is good quality, why wouldn't the fish stay alive? If You were locked in a closet, but had a light on, and had food shoved through a small opening, you'd be able to live there too. As long as you had decent oxygen and food, you'd survive. But would you be thriving there? No. Same with the fish.

[strawberryblonde]

How lucrative are discus to a LFS? I ask because one of the LFS sells their Discus for $40 (medium sized) while the higher end LFS sells them for $70. I can't imagine that they get them cheaper than we do, unless they breed them.

A quick search on Yelp shows the higher end LFS showcasing several single-tanked Discus with different types of community fish. Keeping Discus by themselves or outside their normal habitats can lead to stress, which can in turn, lead to disease. It seems rather risky to do in a show tank?

I only ask this question because this particular LFS seems to be a trusted source, they're in the business of building aquariums and house all different types of Discus, and seem to be doing it successfully, even though most of the advice I've researched on has advised against their methods.

They get them for much MUCH less than we do. Less than $5.00 per fish.

So why are you continuing to ask these questions? What is it that you are hoping to hear from us?

Again, can discus live alone in a 30 gallon tank...yes, of course they can. Can they live with other tank inhabitants? Sometimes yes, sometimes no...depends on what you decide to put in there. For a short while you can put fish who like disparate temperature zones in the same tank and they will live. The ones who require lower temps will have shorter life spans and be more prone to illness.

Does that answer your questions?

Is the point of this exercise to try to "prove" to us that it's ok for you to buy one discus and put him in a community tank? If so, again I say, you don't need our permission, go for it. It will be sub optimal conditions for your discus, and if you can live with that, it's fine by me.

[Gorf]

You ask if there is a secret to keeping discus alive all by itself, in a small tank. I don't think there is one. As long as the water is good quality, why wouldn't the fish stay alive? If You were locked in a closet, but had a light on, and had food shoved through a small opening, you'd be able to live there too. As long as you had decent oxygen and food, you'd survive. But would you be thriving there? No. Same with the fish.

Excellent point.

[tonytheboss1]

Just because something is being done or can be done doesn't necessarily mean it SHOULD be done. Like others before me have stated, the objective should be to best provide optimal conditions for the Discus to THRIVE. Survival is a cheap trick & nothing to brag about. You seem determined so I fear the worst but if you can read all the info HERE & outside source info from almost every major Discus author in the last 50yrs & still choose to do other than follow the conventional wisdom then as stated by my 'namesake' "you need no permission".......carry on. "T"

[discuspaul]

Wow, I've never seen a LFS keeping discus in singles, in small tanks. Bettas yes, but not discus.

You ask if there is a secret to keeping discus alive all by itself, in a small tank. I don't think there is one. As long as the water is good quality, why wouldn't the fish stay alive? If You were locked in a closet, but had a light on, and had food shoved through a small opening, you'd be able to live there too. As long as you had decent oxygen and food, you'd survive. But would you be thriving there? No. Same with the fish.

Not only is this a good analogy, but it can be taken a little further. By and large, discus are very social animals, just as we humans are (except perhaps for the odd 'loner'). So, in addition to the 'being kept in a closet & fed' example, what do you think a human would become under those circumstances with no other human to communicate with at any time ? At the very least, a 'very lonely camper' - same goes for discus - they thrive in large social groups, but by themselves with no others of their own kind around, ever, who knows....., but one can well imagine.

As for LFS's selling discus, not only does Toni make an excellent point in her first post above,
but many, if not most, LFS operators/owners/salespersons know very little, or nothing, about discus and don't know how to care for them properly to ensure they thrive. They may know a good deal about fish-keeping generally, but their knowledge of discus is usually skimpy at best. They're businesspeople for the most part, and devote their energies into selling fish quickly before they succumb to less than ideal treatment and proper care.

[Nu2Discus]

Another thing I heard, was actually from a video from bulk reef supply. The guy said something along the lines of, that you can probably be successful with almost any strategy with your fishtank for up to year. But if you are not doing things the proper way, things will start to fall apart then. Basically saying, it may work for a while, but eventually if you're not doing it right, it will catch up to you. So when someone says, I've been doing "X" and it's been fine, ask them how long has it been doing fine.

[myofibroblast]

Aqualogic,

I've been reading a lot of articles about discus fish as well and a newbie like you! I hope you will take the plunge and enjoy discus fish. They're so incredibly fun to watch!

As for your primary question:

The conventional wisdom will be that to keep a single discus is ill-advised. I think we all appreciate that the nature of "conventional wisdom" necessarily derives from anecdotal evidence/aggregate experience at best, and hearsay at its most common. If you want to know what the experience of keeping a single discus is, it's probably best that you ask this question at many different forums and seek out experiences from people who have first-hand experience in keeping a single discus in a community tank. Their success/failure will necessarily differ from your own experience because no two aquarium (and their keepers) are identical. Those who have not endeavored in raising a single discus can only offer speculation, theory (sometimes rather comically anthropomorphic to the tune of "lonely" or "sad" or "anxious", as if clinical depression/anxiety and the criteria for their diagnoses truly exist), or second-hand unverified information. That being said, I have read online people who have success keeping a single discus. And if you take the plunge and do it, you may add to that experience as well! You'll find a good list online regarding water parameters that may be compatible for your community fishies. One thing you might want to find out is whether the discus your LFSs are selling truly require R/O, acidic pH, blah blah blah. Like many animals, discus acclimate, and some are born and raised in water environments that are totally different from the Amazon. If they have been living in your LFS tank in just 84F dechlorinated pH 7.2 tap water, putting them in your super special pH 6.0 88F peat moss in the HOB and floating almond leaves R/O water may actually cause more physiologic deviance when you first introduce them. Just a theory.

As for your general question:

I have seen LFS use a communal water tank (like at least 300 or 400 gallon) hidden somewhere and that water is piped to each tiny display aquarium...maybe analogous to a giant refugium with tens of tiny display tanks. So the water quality may actually be better than water confined to those 10 or 5 gallon display tanks you see. Or maybe it's not the case in your LFS. It's difficult to say how long these LFS operators are able to keep the discus in those small tanks, but I imagine probably at least several weeks, if not months. Keep in mind that sometimes people medicate their fish in treatment buckets that are usually 5 gallons, and the treatments can sometimes last days (and they are already sick to begin with). So it's possible to keep them alive in small volumes of water, as per the previous experts have indicated. Whether keeping discus in small tanks allows them to thrive? I'm not sure how to answer that question. Thrive is such a subjective, nebulous term. I think a more specific question will help the experts (not me) answer your question. May I suggest asking for specific end-points, i.e. Does keeping a single discus in a 10 gallon aquarium bare bottom aquarium with XYZ filtration result in higher annual incidence of ABC disease (or annual growth rate as measured by diameter....you get the point) vs a 30/40/50/60/75/100 gallon bare bottom aquarium with identical/similar water conditions? I suspect you will get very few, if any, answers if you asked something specific with a defined end-point. You will likely get something to the tune of "in general...." "maintaining environmental stability is much easier in larger vs. smaller.." etc etc which you have, no doubt, read ad nauseum.

But I submit that none of these end-poiint questions is really important if you just enjoy having a discus fish. If you get the itch to try your hands at having one in your 30 gallon community aquarium, just do it and be the expert at it! Being in YOUR 30 gallon may prove to be much more fun/less stressful than being cramped in a tiny cubicle exposed to hundreds of gawking strangers (and I'm not talking about pet stores....try looking up "discus fish show" on youtube and you'll see what I mean!).

[yim11]

No big secret, they don't keep them for the life of the discus. They sell them as quickly as possible, and if they don't sell them quickly enough they dispose of them when they die.

This is your answer - LFS simply don't keep them long enough to worry about disease, stunting, poor conditions, etc. If they are still there 30 days after arrival (and alive lol) they go on sale.

Looks like the single discus part has been well covered lol.

[aqualogic]

Well I thank you for the responses, I'm not going to say I'm not tempted about getting a Discus, they're a beautiful fish and the more I see pictures and video of them, the more I want to give them a try.

The general perception that I've gotten out of this fish is that they're super high maintenance that require the following:

- minimum 55 gallon aquarium
- minimum 5-6 tank mates
- Perfect crystal clear R/O | D/O water
- PH 6.5/7.0
- Soft water
- 80/85 degree water temperature
- Daily to weekly water changes with 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc.

I've given these fish a lot of thought but so far refrained from giving them a try due to the requirements and information put out from forums such as this and others. I noticed the LFS that contain Discus, they're normally mixed in with Angelfish and other tank mates such as SAE's and Cardinal Tetras.

Some of the Discus are in pairs, while others are by themselves. I've read that breeding pairs can normally do well together with just two, but what are the odds of getting a breeding pair? I noticed that confirmed breeding pairs sell for much more as opposed to just rolling the dice on your Discus and getting what you can.

For the Discus that are mixed with just another Discus and can't confirm if they are breeding pair, what is the normal reaction given to each other?











I'm no expert, but what are your thoughts on their setup?

[John_Nicholson]

If your goal is to keep the fish alive for less than 90 days( which will be the goal of your LFS, hell they want them sold in less tham 14 days if possible ) than do anything you want. If your goal is to have nice healthy fish that live for 10 years then you have to do everything right. You are trying to compare apples to oranges.

-john

[Skip]

Well I thank you for the responses, I'm not going to say I'm not tempted about getting a Discus, they're a beautiful fish and the more I see pictures and video of them, the more I want to give them a try.

The general perception that I've gotten out of this fish is that they're super high maintenance that require the following:

- minimum 55 gallon aquarium
- minimum 5-6 tank mates
- Perfect crystal clear R/O | D/O water
- PH 6.5/7.0
- Soft water
- 80/85 degree water temperature
- Daily to weekly water changes with 0 ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, etc.

I've given these fish a lot of thought but so far refrained from giving them a try due to the requirements and information put out from forums such as this and others.

I think you need to do more research.. if these are the water parameters needed for discus. . You don't need that ro.. ph.. soft stuff.. tap water is easier and cheaper

[Elliots]

You do not need crystal clear water but it is nice to have.
You do not need pH 6.5/7.0, you need constant pH.
I do not really know if you need soft water, that may be more critical in breeding Discus and raising fry. I do not know because I am not doing either.
The frequency of water changes should be way more than weekly but it can be decreased if you have adults. (Buy adults!) At least change water several times a week.
If your tank is cycled you should have 0 ammonia or very close to 0.
The photos you show of Discus do not look large enough or old enough to breed but you can never be sure of that.