How is it that all my LFS carry Discus within these parameters?

[strawberryblonde]

The discus in the pictures you posted are fine examples of what not to buy!

You have one photo of a group of tanks. On the right there are two very peppered pigeon bloods. They won't outgrow the peppering, it will get more pronounced as they get older. The other two discus in that tank are football shaped, which also won't get better with age. All four look to be stunted. The least stunted would be the pigeon blood on the right with all the peppering.

The middle tank has one VERY dark discus...which means that it's most likely quite sick. That also explains why there's not as many in that tank. I'd bet that any others have already kicked the bucket. And then there's the single discus on the left end of the tanks. He's very hard to see even when I resized the pic on my pc, but looks very young, football shaped and not well.

Part of the problem I see with those tanks is that they have a thick layer of gravel, which hides all the poop (they don't want customers to see the poop and uneaten food) and all that poop and food just breeds bad bacteria and pathogens. Each time new discus go into those tanks they encounter all the nasty stuff left behind by the last batch...very unsanitary and not good for discus who are sensitive fish!

The other problem is that they are all on the same water system (pipe and valve in top right of tank photo). This means that whatever illnesses one discus has is moved along to all the other tanks in the system. So you stand a good chance of bringing home discus that look healthy, only to have them get sick in the first couple of weeks in your tank.

If you're going to purchase discus, it's much better to take a look at the sponsor section of this forum and then to pm or email a sponsor once you find some discus strains that you like. The sponsor can help you choose the right size and strains for your particular tank. (For instance, you wouldn't want to raise a pigeon blood in a planted tank because it will show more peppering).

Others have mentioned the pH requirements for domestic discus, so I won't go overboard here, but they are giving you good advice. You do NOT need RO water for discus. Just aged tap water will be fine and temps should be between 82-84F for the average tank.

[dirtyplants]

Perhaps we are being a little hard on this person. My question is are you all saying 30 gallons is two small for one discus, or does the one discus per gallon still apply or does the latter indicate exceptions to the rule?
Truly when I first tried discus they were wild. There was little info out there at keeping as a hobby, and a lot of people trying their hands at breeding them. I was one and getting two wilds back then was considered OK. You had to turn to people like Wattley and others for advice. You did your best with little info. You tried different methods and you experimented.
Today most of the discus are tank raised with BBs. That to me is much like being in a glass zoo, but those fry are used to it, and would probably be stressed out in any other situation. The reasons for raising discus in BB, with 50% water change daily should be understood for it gives the easiest the quickest and satisfying results. It is not the only way to do things however. If you do choose to go out of the box, then you should have the knowledge, the patience, the work ethics, and the wisdom to call for help when needed. That being said, these people, in forum land, are usually experienced and have had their share of experimentation, successes, and failures. So you can gain from their wins and their loses. Many hands on-ers need to learn from personal experience. We are all fortunate to have such a forum, along with the access to experienced keepers, sometimes opinionated, sometimes generous, but most of the time are willing to aid in our personal knowledge and successes with Discus.
LFS think in a temporary time frame.
They hope not to keep the fish for a long time.
My question to you is do you think your fish is a living creature or an ornament? If you care about the fish's well being then you are going to be on this forum, asking the whys and the hows. Perhaps then taking that knowledge and applying it to your needs and expectations. You may well push the envelope, do your own thing, then if something goes wrong you have the knowledge and wisdom from the forum to fall back on.
You might after keeping one for a while want to keep more.

I for one have no problems with keeping one discus as apposed to ten discus. I figure if you can kill one discus just as easily as you can kill ten. I prefer it be one then ten.

[a volar]

Truth is that OP questions have been answered many times in this thread...... My recommendation will be READ and READ all you can in this forum, good luck!

[dirtyplants]

Ditto

[jmf3460]

I agree about the quality of the discus from this store. Typical LFS quality discus fish. But their planted tanks are beautiful! I give them credit for that!

[strawberryblonde]

Perhaps we are being a little hard on this person. My question is are you all saying 30 gallons is two small for one discus, or does the one discus per gallon still apply or does the latter indicate exceptions to the rule?
...

No one is being hard on the OP. We're all giving him the best advice and options we can as well as trying to explain why you might see one discus in a 10g tank in a LFS, or many in a small tank in a LFS. The whole point we're making is that a LFS is only interested in selling them as quickly as possible and they aren't keeping them in optimal conditions for long term survivability.

We also made it clear that you can certainly keep one discus in a 30 gallon tank. Or even in a community tank so long as the other fish are compatible. I'm speaking from experience here. I raised one wild (or F1) discus in a 50 gallon community tank back in the 80's. Temps were too low for discus because I didn't know any better. He was only fed tetra type flake foods for the same reason. He had angel fish and gourami's for companions and ignored all the other fish in the tank. I'm a bit OCD, so even though back then they recommended changing 15% of the water once a month, I changed 80% once a week. I had an undergravel filter as well as an in tank corner filter and a HOB filter...for the same reason... OCD. LOL

My discus grew fairly well and reached about 6" by the end of the second year. He weathered one round of ich quite well. Basically, he was a tough fish and he survived. Was he great looking? I thought so, but I didn't know anyone else with discus so I had nothing to compare him to. Now that I look back at pictures of him I can see that he was a bit stunted and probably would have grown at least another inch or two with proper care and tank conditions.

So I'll refer back to my original post on this thread when I tell you that yes, you can keep one discus in a community tank. Not so sure I'd want to try it in a 30g, because it would end up overcrowded if you added in angels or some other fairly large, placid fish to be companions for the discus. 50g is about the minimum for safety and best water conditions (the smaller the tank, the larger the room for error when it comes to water quality).

And having said all that, would I ever do it again? Nope! Now that I understand discus a bit better and have two tanks full of them I see the huge difference in behavior of these discus compared to my lone discus.

You also mentioned that today most discus are raised in BB tanks and that you think it's like being in a glass zoo. Maybe you missed the whole point of the BB tank? You ONLY raise them in the BB. Once they reach large sub-adults, you move them to a main tank that's decorated and has substrate... or you add decor and substrate to the grow out tank. Personally, I like adding a potted plant or piece of driftwood to my grow out tanks right from the start and then a thin layer of sand once they reach 5". You absolutely can raise from juvies in a planted tank, or a tank with just sand and driftwood, etc. The downside is that the water changes HAVE to be daily and very stringent cleaning of the substrate and plants has to be done because of that margin for error in water quality. If food gets lodged in the plants, it rots, water quality goes down and juvies are super sensitive to that. So you end up trading off having plants for spending an extra hour carefully siphoning out all the detritus. Been there, did that, switched to BB to grow them out and breathed a sigh of relief.

[Madaboutdiscus]

Well said Toni.

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[Rudustin]

I have crystal clear water and have been away for a week with no water changes in my tanks and my discus being fed by my housekeeper that doesn't know a Discus from a shark! I water change when I can and I have gorgeous discus who are healthy and happy and eating and pooping like mad! If you read this forum you can get very intimidated by the various threads because some people are simply addicted to their Discus and want to give them the optimal care. It is for most a hobby and just like tennis, golf or any other hobby people have time to devote more or less time to that hobby and in some cases people are breeding discus. There are so many levels of "optimal care" depending on time, size of the fish and how large or small the tank is. As everyone before me has said if you want to raise one discus in any tank then do it! Maybe you can make that particular fish very happy! We all could be proved wrong by thinking that Discus need to be in groups. Our experience is that many of us love Discus so much that we try to stuff as many into one space as we can while still keeping the parameters of the housing, feeding and water quality to support that many fish. If you do buy just one I hope you will send us pics of that Discus and progress check pics so we can see how wrong most of us might be. On the other hand since so many people have given you a similar opinion we'd like to see the progress pics good or bad because perhaps you may be more right than us wrong.

[John_Nicholson]

LOL. I have heard this exact song and dance many, many times. Some of the time I have had the opportunity to stop by and see these "gorgeous discus" Most are small and would rate about a 4 on a 1 to 10 scale. Nothing wrong with that it that is what the owner wants but I like so many others want really nice and large discus. That rarely happens with subpar care.

-john

I have crystal clear water and have been away for a week with no water changes in my tanks and my discus being fed by my housekeeper that doesn't know a Discus from a shark! I water change when I can and I have gorgeous discus who are healthy and happy and eating and pooping like mad! If you read this forum you can get very intimidated by the various threads because some people are simply addicted to their Discus and want to give them the optimal care. It is for most a hobby and just like tennis, golf or any other hobby people have time to devote more or less time to that hobby and in some cases people are breeding discus. There are so many levels of "optimal care" depending on time, size of the fish and how large or small the tank is. As everyone before me has said if you want to raise one discus in any tank then do it! Maybe you can make that particular fish very happy! We all could be proved wrong by thinking that Discus need to be in groups. Our experience is that many of us love Discus so much that we try to stuff as many into one space as we can while still keeping the parameters of the housing, feeding and water quality to support that many fish. If you do buy just one I hope you will send us pics of that Discus and progress check pics so we can see how wrong most of us might be. On the other hand since so many people have given you a similar opinion we'd like to see the progress pics good or bad because perhaps you may be more right than us wrong.

[myofibroblast]

LOL. I have heard this exact song and dance many, many times. Some of the time I have had the opportunity to stop by and see these "gorgeous discus" Most are small and would rate about a 4 on a 1 to 10 scale. Nothing wrong with that it that is what the owner wants but I like so many others want really nice and large discus. That rarely happens with subpar care.

-john

What is a "4" to you may be a "10" to the original poster. The fish itself is most likely not aware of its hotness. What many experts here are advocating is that each hobbyist has his or her own goals. It may be more helpful to for the hobbyist to identify those goals, and then seek advice accordingly.

Giving advice with the a priori assumption that every hobbyist is interested in breeding or 12-inch mega discus fish with eye-to-head proportion of X and roundness of Y is not helpful, and sometimes even detrimental to the general hobbyist, especially those who are new to the hobby such as "Aqualogic" and myself.

Re: Aqualogic's petshop pictures...do you know the plant in that cubical tank that looks like a lily? I just ordered a 125 tall acrylic from petsmart and I'm in the planning phase for that tank. I read a wonderful article last year in Nat Geo on exporting discus as a sustainable local economy for communities along Lake Ayapua. Apparently the folks gather araca twigs from bushes around the lake perimeter, and place them in thick patches on the bottom of the lake. The discus must be instinctively drawn to them because they "colonize" these patches that probably provide hiding places! I'm not a biotope fanatic, so plants with similar functionality to the araca twigs and leaves will be good enough, and that lily looking plant seems like an awesome substitute!

[aqualogic]

Yes, somewhat intimidating, but then again, I hear similar responses when people ask if a betta will survive in a 2.5 gallon tank. This of course coming from someone who just bought their betta in a cup from Wal-Mart of all places. In my opinion, they're both beautiful fish and all fish should get the best optimal care.

I get where everyone is coming from though, you got mad love for your Discus, this is the equivalent of someone asking if a french poodle will be an ok dog breed to have in an apartment, we're not talking about a chihuaha here. The short answer being yes and no.

P.S. BroBlast

I will call the LFS in question and ask them what plant that is, I will also inquire how they're maintaning their discus in such regards and get to the bottom of this from an LFS perspective

[John_Nicholson]

I hear what you are saying. I just like for anyone that drops by and reads this 6 months from now to understand how this works. If someone only sees low quality fish then they will have no clue what a really nice discus looks like. The best example that I can quote is when Skip came to the NADA show in Atlanta. After looking at the tanks for 2 days he looked at me and said that he was going to go home and kill all of his fish because now he knew what a nice discus was really suppose to look like. I have had lots of people about the great fish that they have grown in their planted tanks...then they stop buy here to buy fish from me and it changes their world. Not trying to brag about my fish. I am bragging about the way that the fish were raised. The raod map is there and it is clear. Any hobbyist here can raise fish that can win at NADA but they can't do it trying to raise them with marginal care. Now I am not judging anyone. They can raise their fish anyway they want, I really don't care about that. I only care for the new people that read this in the future. As long as everyone realizes how different methods lead to different results I am good.

-john

What is a "4" to you may be a "10" to the original poster. The fish itself is most likely not aware of its hotness. What many experts here are advocating is that each hobbyist has his or her own goals. It may be more helpful to for the hobbyist to identify those goals, and then seek advice accordingly.

Giving advice with the a priori assumption that every hobbyist is interested in breeding or 12-inch mega discus fish with eye-to-head proportion of X and roundness of Y is not helpful, and sometimes even detrimental to the general hobbyist, especially those who are new to the hobby such as "Aqualogic" and myself.

Re: Aqualogic's petshop pictures...do you know the plant in that cubical tank that looks like a lily? I just ordered a 125 tall acrylic from petsmart and I'm in the planning phase for that tank. I read a wonderful article last year in Nat Geo on exporting discus as a sustainable local economy for communities along Lake Ayapua. Apparently the folks gather araca twigs from bushes around the lake perimeter, and place them in thick patches on the bottom of the lake. The discus must be instinctively drawn to them because they "colonize" these patches that probably provide hiding places! I'm not a biotope fanatic, so plants with similar functionality to the araca twigs and leaves will be good enough, and that lily looking plant seems like an awesome substitute!

[myofibroblast]

The discus in the pictures you posted are fine examples of what not to buy!

You have one photo of a group of tanks. On the right there are two very peppered pigeon bloods. They won't outgrow the peppering, it will get more pronounced as they get older. The other two discus in that tank are football shaped, which also won't get better with age. All four look to be stunted. The least stunted would be the pigeon blood on the right with all the peppering.

These discuses did not know they were un-pretty until they came to an online forum. haha. Eye of the beholder, as always. These LFS fish cannot compete with the Hollywood standards for sure.

[Skip]

These discuses did not know they were un-pretty until they came to an online forum. haha. Eye of the beholder, as always. These LFS fish cannot compete with the Hollywood standards for sure.

But u want to be educated in what u buy sob you don't get ripped off..

Some very crappy small discus are sold at lfs for what you could pay for adult fish a sponsor here..

But then again.. p t barnum had a saying. .....

[myofibroblast]

I hear what you are saying. I just like for anyone that drops by and reads this 6 months from now to understand how this works. If someone only sees low quality fish then they will have no clue what a really nice discus looks like. The best example that I can quote is when Skip came to the NADA show in Atlanta. After looking at the tanks for 2 days he looked at me and said that he was going to go home and kill all of his fish because now he knew what a nice discus was really suppose to look like. -john

I hope he didn't really kill all his fish!

Youtube has a collection of videos from Asian and European shows. A lot of times people can decide for themselves whether that's their goal, or something else entirely. Thanks for your advice, I do enjoy reading them and others' too.