Pat's Wild Tefe F1 "Batch B"

[Tommo]

Actually increasing your TDS can help, not sure how much at this point.

An interesting fact, you will never see shortened gill plates in fry that have been raised in water with a high TDS or mineral content. Some gurus raise fry in RO waste for a reason. It ensures proper skeletal/tissue development. Fish absorb just as much nutrients from the water as they do their food.

http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2115&page=17

Folks I suggest the important / crucial point to remember in the TDS / mineral argument is that from the day an egg is laid until the day an adult discus dies it develops and thrives in water with little or no mineral content and very low conductivity. In its natural environment discus are never subjected to the levels of TDS mentioned in this discussion - yet their bones structures (and opercular) develop normally. The article cited / linked above, although interesting, is very general in nature and, de facto, does not take into consideration species of fish that have overtime adapted to 'unique' conditions . . .

As for some 'gurus' raising fry in waste RO water. I can think of three other reasons for doing this off the top of my head:

1. It is far more convenient, and cost effective, to use waste RO water (or tap water) than to have to produce the large volumes of RO necessary to raise numbers of Discus.

2. By conditioning the fry to accept 'normal' water they adapt more easily to the 'average' aquarists aquarium . . . and are therefore easier to sell on.

3. Certain bacterial diseases do not thrive in harder water. The late Jorgan Scheel performed a series of experiments on raising killifish fry (Rivulins of the Old World). I wish I had this book with me here in China! Basically, he did a series of experiments raising killi fry in both hard and soft water. The fry raised in soft water were very susceptible to infection from a certain strain of bacteria whereas those raised in the hard water were not. I would suggest any person who keeps fish tries to get an old copy of this out of print book. The book has some fascinating insights e.g. do you know that you can induce certain 'hard to breed' species to spawn by treating aquarium water with the urine from a pregnant woman? And yes before you ask (sad man that I am) I have tried this and got two male Heckles to pair up and fertilize a sponge filter . . . .

Paul

[Eddie]

Are we feeding the fish the same food that is available to them in their natural habitat? Not at all. Food can pretty much cover all of the nutrient uptake for the requirements of the fish but if we can provide nutrients from both water and food, I'm all about it. Why? Because we can. Different strokes for different folks.

[Second Hand Pat]

Well Paul, if you feel that the lack of mineral discussion is all wet then perhaps back to Rick's bacteria idea or your infusoria idea. But if the cause was bacterial or infusoria wouldn't the entire batch be affected?

I did eyeball the fry last night and there seems to be only about three or four which are affected by the short gill plates. Since these were parent raised could I be missing something in the parents diet? These fry didn't take BBS until the ninth day or so.

[nc0gnet0]

Definitely appears to be a lack of mineral content in the water then.

That would be my guess as well. I try to bring my TDS up to around 100 ppm gradually after hatch (from 35 tds) over a two-three day period. Everyones water is differrent however.

Rick

[Tommo]

Well Paul, if you feel that the lack of mineral discussion is all wet then perhaps back to Rick's bacteria idea or your infusoria idea. But if the cause was bacterial or infusoria wouldn't the entire batch be affected?

I did eyeball the fry last night and there seems to be only about three or four which are affected by the short gill plates. Since these were parent raised could I be missing something in the parents diet? These fry didn't take BBS until the ninth day or so.

Ask the question Pat: what does infusoria feed on? When one sets up an infusoria culture from scratch e.g. scalding a leaf of lettuce (old method I know) and topping up the jar with water what happens? The water goes cloudy, and smelly, because of the bacterial bloom which in turn feed the infusans until eventually the water clears. A simplistic explanation I know but there is a clear link. You know me well enough by now regarding my thoughts on water quality. . Bacteria / infusoria effecting all the fry if this was the cause? Possibly, but it's normally the weakest that succumb first . . .

The delay in feeding BBS may have had some effect of the growth rate of the fry but it is unlikely (although possible) to have resulted in shortened opercular. The fact that there was a small number of fry in a relatively large area of a mature aquarium means that they would have been getting some additional nourishment from small particles of food not consumed by the parent fish and micro organisms present in the sand drift wood etc. The diet that you've used feeding the parents seems okay from what I've read in your previous posts . . .

The intitial question I would be asking is why was there such a small number of fry: problems with the potency of the new male or perhaps water parameters? The tools we aquarists use for measuring water parameters are however, not very informative and can only be used as a guide. For e.g. we measure TDS and get a reading but what makes up the Total Disolved Solids? We have no idea! We can get TDS measurements from water in two different locations which result in the same 'number' but may contain very different solids/minerals. Try it for yourself: measure the TDS of your tap water and then boil it in an aluminium pan and take a second reading. The TDS reading will be significantly higher because of the aluminium that has leached out from the pan into the water. Measuring pH can also be 'misleading' . . .

You say that only 3 or 4 of the fry exhibit the short operculars: 14% - 18% - may seem high but could just be a blip. I would tend to wait and see what the result is from a second spawning from the same pair. I would spend my time just raising and enjoying the fry rather than playing around with the TDS.

I guess I've raised more questions than answers aye? The joys of keeping, and especially raising, Discus!

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

Paul, you bring up the small number of fry with this spawn brings up somethings else which may have a hand in the short gill plates. The female had about seven or eight spawns between batch A and batch B and the last couple of spawns prior to batch B were large spawns, easily over 200 eggs per spawn. The number of eggs laid for batch B was pretty small, I was guessing around 40 eggs so maybe the quality of the spawn itself was substandard compared with the prior ones.

I am going to take your advice and enjoy and raise these guys to my best ability. The ones with the short gill plates can be useful as culls if I run into issues with this batch.

[Tommo]

Paul, you bring up the small number of fry with this spawn brings up somethings else . . . . . maybe the quality of the spawn itself was substandard compared with the prior ones.

I am going to take your advice and enjoy and raise these guys to my best ability. The ones with the short gill plates can be useful as culls if I run into issues with this batch.

Yes Pat, yet another variable - one of many ha ha. Enjoy

Paul

[Second Hand Pat]

That it is Paul and some interesting discussion too.

[Second Hand Pat]

Seven weeks old this past Wednesday. TDS is 211, Ph 7.8, temp 82 and one 90% WC a day. I am using the piece of wood to anchor the fry to one side of the tank and keep them all grouped up. Seems to be working pretty good.

[Keith Perkins]

Good idea on the wood to group them up on one end. It's funny how much they look like my RTs right now.

[Second Hand Pat]

I had similar thoughts seeing pics of your RTs the other night.

[jaykne]

Hey Pat you know me I don't make allot of comments but I have to here. Those fry are really looking great, I would say for F1's there size and shape are very very nice!!! a big my friend your hard work shows.

[Second Hand Pat]

WOW and thanks Larry for the kind comments. I sure do appreciate it.

[Second Hand Pat]

I noticed today that a couple of the smaller fry were showing strong then normal bars today and during the WC this evening I pulled the prefilter on the AC30 and one of the fry got caught between the tank and prefilter and died

[Second Hand Pat]

Doing a WC this morning one of the fry was swimming weird and I caught it with my hand. Since it didn't look good I culled it. I am wondering if I pinched it doing the WC but I really try to be careful. Since it was one of the larger ones I measured it and it was one and 1/4 quarter inches.

Eyeballing the group this morning there is a core group doing very well but a couple do not seem to be eating with vigor and growing. I am considering culling those also but will decide tonight.