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Thread: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

  1. #31
    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by pcsb23 View Post
    Makes a lot of sense John - surprisingly ...

    Most people try and run before they can walk, there are skills to be learned with planted tanks that take time, patience and practise. There are also skills (or maybe disciplines?) to be learned with discus too which also take time, patience and practise. I've no problems with people wanting to have discus in planted tanks, and I've no problems if they are newcomers to both (though I would and have advised doing one or the other first!). My problem comes from being told by the same newcomers that the same people who are trying to help know nothing and they will prove us wrong ... so far I'm still waiting to see the proof!

    I've no issues with newcomers to the hobby asking why btw, I'd rather they entered into a reasoned debate and then make a decision with their eyes open.

    And for the record, I love planted tanks with and without discus in. I also love looking at just a tank full of healthy vibrant discus, sometimes you don't need anything else!
    LOL...Thanks Paul. By the way can't wait to meet you at NADA. The show is going to be out of this world.

    Mooncon I seldom get mad but sometimes I do make other that way.....

    -john
    Please check out http://forum.discusnada.org/

    SOS Crew Texas

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    Registered Member Chad Adams's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by pcsb23 View Post
    Makes a lot of sense John - surprisingly ...

    Most people try and run before they can walk, there are skills to be learned with planted tanks that take time, patience and practise. There are also skills (or maybe disciplines?) to be learned with discus too which also take time, patience and practise. I've no problems with people wanting to have discus in planted tanks, and I've no problems if they are newcomers to both (though I would and have advised doing one or the other first!). My problem comes from being told by the same newcomers that the same people who are trying to help know nothing and they will prove us wrong ... so far I'm still waiting to see the proof!

    I've no issues with newcomers to the hobby asking why btw, I'd rather they entered into a reasoned debate and then make a decision with their eyes open.

    And for the record, I love planted tanks with and without discus in. I also love looking at just a tank full of healthy vibrant discus, sometimes you don't need anything else!
    The most sense anyone representing the forum has said in this whole thread besides the original post.
    Words of wisdom buddy!

    Chad
    Proud Host of the best Discus show ever in North America because of the people who came!!
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    Registered Member Udeservit's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    I have a planted tank, I didn't come on here simply due to problems and needing answers. The purpose of joining was to join a community with like interests. I feel most newbies join for this matter!!! Although I don't know the statistics on that. Since joining I have formed opinions on the BB (people) and PT (people) but I'm still very happy to have dialogue with both.
    I have been through almost every breed of fish keeping for 20 years but am surprised at the care Discus require. LFS do not educate...just push the sales.So its forums like these that can be very helpful to someone who takes the plunge with little knowledge. I am going to be one of those (people) who took the plunge with inadequate knowledge of maintaing a discus tank.
    Some people pay a lot of money for an expensive camera and learn over the years how to use it. Prob most new Discus keepers have this philosophy. Good for them for trying!
    Things I've learned on here to this point is...
    Planted is possible (phew).
    Water Changes have been made easier for me and more frequent because of members help and positive comments, Thank-you.
    Im going to have some trouble with disease... I think I may have ich lurking already ( yes I'm one of those people)
    I now use "safe" a much more affordable chlorine remover.
    Hope....for a future with Discus if I learn from my mistakes...
    Sometimes questions seem repetitive yes, but If you're not bothered buy a Discus noobie with a planted tank please continue to have dialogue. I have learned so much already and Hope to be some value to the site.
    I'm not giving up but I'm stubborn about the planted tank. Its just so pretty. So don't roll your eyes when i run into problems Help !! Your answers may help someone else who reads the thread out too.
    Thats my rant...
    This was a great thread to have started. Puts things into perspective for those who are one-sided . Thanks
    kelly

  4. #34
    Moderator Team Chad Hughes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabres1 View Post
    The most sense anyone representing the forum has said in this whole thread besides the original post.
    Words of wisdom buddy!

    Chad
    We're all saying the same thing Chad..... Just worded a bit differently. I have always promoted planted tanks with the caveat that one master a planted tank prior to the introduction of discus (or any livestock for that matter). My very first discus were placed immediately into a mature, well balanced planted tank.

    As Paul mentioned, we welcome the question why. I too would rather enter in to a reasoned debate with an individual that challenges traditional thinking. The problem is that a reasoned debate isn't really possible when there is immediate backlash from the forum as to the mere mention of not keeping discus in anything but a glass box.

    I'll go out on a limb and say that those that respond negatively to raising/keeping discus in a planted tank have experienced problems keeping plants alive, keeping discus alive, keeping water parameters correct or have never even attempted a planted tank. This is just a guess but why else would a person claim such a thing. Experience? I'd hope so but not likely.

    I know for a fact that there are folks on this forum that keep discus in bare tanks and have had more problems than you could count and eventually lost their fish. If you can't even keep fish in a glass box, please DO NOT ATTEMPT A PLANTED TANK! It's like going from simple addition to Calc IV overnight. Go back and learn discus keeping before attempting such a complex ecosystem.

    I'd say some of the most convenient things about a bare tank are water is easy to change, tank is easy to clean, fish are easy to medicate....easy(er).

    Anyway, I'm happy to hear that this debate will not end anytime soon. It's healthy for oue hobby.
    Chad Hughes

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    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    I just dream of a day when a chicken can cross the road without their motives being questioned.....

    -john
    Please check out http://forum.discusnada.org/

    SOS Crew Texas

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    Platinum Member and Homesteader nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    I'll go out on a limb and say that those that respond negatively to raising/keeping discus in a planted tank have experienced problems keeping plants alive, keeping discus alive, keeping water parameters correct or have never even attempted a planted tank. This is just a guess but why else would a person claim such a thing. Experience? I'd hope so but not likely
    Or they just have spent some time in the disease section trying to reason with people why treatment in a planted tank is often futile, that even when and if they do pull there fish and properly treat them in a "glass box" as soon as they put them back into the planted tank, re-occurrence (if the disease was parasitic) is almost a given. In such cases most of the time (not always) it's the plants that seem to have more value to the hobbyist then the discus.

    And yes, this does frustrate some of us in the "glass box" crowd.
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 02-07-2014 at 12:34 PM.
    President-North American Discus Association-NADA

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    Registered Member Skip's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Sabres1 View Post
    The most sense anyone representing the forum has said in this whole thread besides the original post.
    Words of wisdom buddy!

    Chad
    isn't this the PAUL coming to speak at NADA Austin?
    Jester - S0S Crew Texas

  8. #38
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Skip View Post
    isn't this the PAUL coming to speak at NADA Austin?
    Yes Skip

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    Registered Member Skip's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    Yes Skip
    well, looks like we have somebody worth listening to.. so everybody should come to austin!!
    Jester - S0S Crew Texas

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    Moderator Team Chad Hughes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Or they just have spent some time in the disease section trying to reason with people why treatment in a planted tank is often futile, that even when and if they do pull there fish and properly treat them in a "glass box" as soon as they put them back into the planted tank, re-occurrence (if the disease was parasitic) is almost a given. In such cases most of the time (not always) it's the plants that seem to have more value to the hobbyist then the discus.

    And yes, this does frustrate some of us in the "glass box" crowd.
    Thanks for that Rick! Excellent point too about medicating. It's impossible in a planted tank. So, I agree with you there, you should never medicate a planted tank.

    Simply browsing the disease section to determine a planted tank as the cause of disease isn't exactly a scientific approach nor is it an accurate cross section of planted tank discus keepers. There are many other variables to consider in an attempt to label all disease as a resut of a planted tank. This may be where taboo stems?

    That said, the only time I ever medicate a fish is during a post shipment QT. In my case it's usually hundreds of fish at a time so I must utilize a chemical QT to insure my investment. This method has afforded me excellent success. I guess I've been fortunate? The source of a discus should never be overlooked either. If you buy sick fish you'll be treating sick fish.

    By the way, I own many glass boxes! It's the only way I can change 2000 gallons of water in an hour. They're awesome!

    Don't get frustrated my friend. Value, much like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder.
    Chad Hughes

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  11. #41
    Registered Member pcsb23's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Or they just have spent some time in the disease section trying to reason with people why treatment in a planted tank is often futile, that even when and if they do pull there fish and properly treat them in a "glass box" as soon as they put them back into the planted tank, re-occurrence (if the disease was parasitic) is almost a given. In such cases most of the time (not always) it's the plants that seem to have more value to the hobbyist then the discus.

    And yes, this does frustrate some of us in the "glass box" crowd.
    I hear you on the plants have more value! And yep, very, very difficult to treat in a planted tank. Prevention is very much better than cure here. This is one of the things that those of us who want to keep discus in planted tanks need to be aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skip View Post
    well, looks like we have somebody worth listening to.. so everybody should come to austin!!
    Very kind of you
    Paul

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    Platinum Member and Homesteader nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Simply browsing the disease section to determine a planted tank as the cause of disease isn't exactly a scientific approach nor is it an accurate cross section of planted tank discus keepers.
    Of course planted tanks don't cause the disease, but they can in fact compound it. And while yes, I do agree with you that browsing the disease section isn't exactly a scientific approach, the results I posted earlier are much closer to the norm than that of an exception. As Al has already pointed out, keeping discus in a planted tank is a compromise between what is best for the fish as opposed to what is best for the plants.

    If few planted tanks people would at least join in helping people on the disease forum, and let people know that after they have had a outbreak in a planted tank, the only way to be successful with a treatment protocol is going to involve breaking down that planted tank, sterilizing it, and starting over, much of the angst among the two groups would be at least minimized.
    President-North American Discus Association-NADA

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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Of course planted tanks don't cause the disease, but they can in fact compound it. And while yes, I do agree with you that browsing the disease section isn't exactly a scientific approach, the results I posted earlier are much closer to the norm than that of an exception. As Al has already pointed out, keeping discus in a planted tank is a compromise between what is best for the fish as opposed to what is best for the plants.

    If few planted tanks people would at least join in helping people on the disease forum, and let people know that after they have had a outbreak in a planted tank, the only way to be successful with a treatment protocol is going to involve breaking down that planted tank, sterilizing it, and starting over, much of the angst among the two groups would be at least minimized.
    good advice, I'll do that after I have my first problem...
    kelly

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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Speaking of the chicken crossing the road, I heard of a study where some celebs were interviewed on why they believe the chicken crossed the road.

    Barak Obama said, "It was time for a change. The chicken just wanted a change."

    Hillary Clinton said, "When I was first lady, I actually helped the chicken cross the road. I am uniquely qualified to help the chickens cross the road.

    Bill Clinton said, "I did not cross the road with that chicken."

    George W. Bush said, "I don't really care why the chicken crossed the road, as long as he is on our side."

    Dr. Phil said, "Obviously the chicken had a problem. He just needs to see how stupid it is to cross the road. He needs to work on his problems on his own side of the road.

    Al Sharpton said, "Why are all the chickens white? We need some black chickens"

    And Oprah said, "I understand the chicken had problems. I'll by the chicken a car so it wont have to walk across the road."



    Quote Originally Posted by John_Nicholson View Post
    I just dream of a day when a chicken can cross the road without their motives being questioned.....

    -john

  15. #45
    Moderator Team Chad Hughes's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Forum's Position on Discus in Planted Tanks....

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    the results I posted earlier are much closer to the norm than that of an exception. If few planted tanks people would at least join in helping people on the disease forum, and let people know that after they have had a outbreak in a planted tank, the only way to be successful with a treatment protocol is going to involve breaking down that planted tank, sterilizing it, and starting over, much of the angst among the two groups would be at least minimized.
    I understand Rick and I concur that planted tanks can compound a problem, especially some sort of parasitic outbreak. If you have a sick planted tank, yes, it requires invasive measures to regain control of the situation. No arguments there. I will say, however, that I've never had an outbreak of illness in a properly established planted tank and therefore could not speak from experience as to a method of treating such a situation other than your recommendation. Start over.

    I would not say, however, that your posted results are the global "norm" simply because that data comes from a very small cross section of dicsus keepers here on this forum, specifically those that already have disease issues hence the reason for their post. Your reasoning is solid based on the data provided but cannot be considered empirical evidence based on the fact that you employ logical deduction vice verifiable data resulting from direct observation or experience. Conclusions are only as good as the data provided.

    The other problem with disease in general is that when a suspected outbreak of whatever is suspected, there is very little proof of what that outbreak is. Assumptions are generally employed based on past experiences with similar issues and a treatment protocol recommended. I realise in most cases we have no other option than to guess.

    Great debate! Thanks Rick!
    Chad Hughes

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