Is this a problem?

[nausky]

Y'know, I haven't been able to get her to replicate the behavior now that the bottom is covered. I actually caught her swimming around with confidence just now (no more semi-clamped fins). Just wow if that really makes the difference of this fish stressing itself to death or not. You guys are great, thanks again.

[pcsb23]

Y'know, I haven't been able to get her to replicate the behavior now that the bottom is covered. I actually caught her swimming around with confidence just now (no more semi-clamped fins). Just wow if that really makes the difference of this fish stressing itself to death or not. You guys are great, thanks again.

Good to hear, but do keep a close eye on it, hopefully all will be fine from now on

[nausky]

I've actually decided to remove the fish from the tank tonight. I have noticed that she no longer has her fins clamped 100% of the time with the bottom covered, but it looks like she isn't eating anymore (or when she does it's very little). She will eat and immediately look as though she's choking and cough everything up. After choking she spasms a lot (I caught a bit of her spasming/twitching in one of the earlier videos I posted to this thread). This isn't anything new but her "idle" breathing is at a much quicker rate than the rest of my fish. She's stopped the whole thing where she falls on the ground and heaves, but she immediately stops trying to eat after she chokes. She doesn't become helpless though, if it's any consolation. She turns aggressive and chases the others away.

Note: their normal diet is Cobalt discus flakes & New Life Spectrum pellets. These are typically soaked in Garlic Guard (it's the only way they like the taste of dry food). Hikari Brine Shrimp, Mysis Shrimp, and Bloodworms are given occasionally as treats.

What's even more worrying is that my large blue one has stopped eating. I see zero symptoms of anything otherwise. He's healthy looking, regular breathing rate, no odd marks on him, pristine fins, good color, comes to the front when I walk up to the tank, but he just completely lost interest in food. Even bloodworms, which was something that he was never able to resist before. Oddly enough, both of these fish came from the same place (I got them from Kenny's May shipment) so I'm wondering if they're just having a hard time truly acclimating to my water hard as hell Louisiana tap water. They're just not thriving like the rest of my fish seem to be.

I'm really getting stressed about this. I've been wasting so much time reading about common disease symptoms. I heavily considered splurging on a microscope to assist in putting my mind at ease but I don't have $200 to throw away right now, I actually just ordered a new tank (a 105g) for these guys at the beginning of the month with my bonus! So it's sad to see things going south. I am worried for the rest of my fish so I think I am going to put them in a 30g with a very thin sand bed (to get rid of all reflections) and keep a very soft light on them. Temps? Salt? Not sure what to do to these guys since their symptoms aren't helping me diagnose them with any certainty. A lot of people seem to lean on the coughing up food & spasm/twitching as gill flukes, but I see no scratching or swollen gills and both seem to be the "huge" indicators. I'm really not expecting any help from you guys since this is all so vague, I guess I just wanted to post an update & vent my frustrations.

[nc0gnet0]

A lot of people seem to lean on the coughing up food & spasm/twitching as gill flukes, but I see no scratching or swollen gills and both seem to be the "huge" indicators.

I have never seen or even heard, of gill fluke infestation effecting fish in the way you describe. Be aware that "gill flukes" seems to be one of the most over diagnosed or misdiagnosed ailments in the discus world IMO.

Pulling the two fish into a 30 gallon QT tank is not a bad idea, I would leave it bare bottom and paint or cover the bottom as you just did with the other tank. Sand is just going to make keeping the tank clean that much harder, and introduce some else to interfere with medication, should you opt to go that route.

I have never seen a fish pass feces through its mouth, or choke and than spasm. The only thing that comes to mind that could cause this is a blockage of some sort in the fish's digest tract. To that resolve you might want to try an epsom salt bath, it's relatively benign and doesn't carry much risk. After doing so, monitor her and the tank closely for the presence of her passing any feces.

Fish often to take food in their mouth and then spit it back out, it there way of "chewing", are you sure this is not what you are observing?

[nausky]

Hey sorry I didn't catch that edit of yours. I'm positive it's not them chewing though. I mean this is like some painful looking choking and it seems to bother them so much that they refuse to try to eat anymore (the blue one won't try, and the leopard always makes an attempt but gives up after the first bite).

I actually have something tangible to show today. The blue one that wasn't eating had a white stringy thing hanging from his gills just now. The only difference is I've raised the temperature to 87. The day I said I was moving them to the 30, I ended up just removing all decorations from the tank to try to keep it as clean as possible.

Anyway, here's the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MvYB...cxxM4UTWHEBvAg

His eyes have faded (they're usually red) and I still haven't seen him eat since my last post. Also, the leopard's right gill is swollen. So now I am definitely setting up the 30g as soon as possible (either tonight or tomorrow morning).

[nc0gnet0]

The only difference is I've raised the temperature to 87.

Why is it everyone insists on doing this? I would set your temperature at 82 and leave it. there are two fish in the tank that are definitely off. It's a bit of a guess as to what is wrong with them, be it parasitic or bacterial. Where do you live and what meds do you have available?

The fact that only two fish are exhibiting symptoms tips the scale on the side of a bacterial issue for me, be curious to see what Paul has to say. To that end I might recommend dropping your temperature to 82 and treating with furan 2 for what appears might be a bacterial gill disease.

[nausky]

I've just always had luck with raising temperature to fix issues without the use of medication. Not specifically for discus but for other fish I've had. I don't want to medicate since I'm not sure what the issue is, so I'm just trying a couple "safe" things. Like heat/epsom. I'd be happy to leave the tank alone if things seemed stable with the fish. By raising the temps (and their metabolisms) they're visibly hungrier. The leopard actually ate tonight despite it looking really painful. The blue one was eyeing food which is an improvement.

If it really seems like a bad call I'll make sure to lower it for the quarantine tank.

[nc0gnet0]

By raising the temps (and their metabolisms) they're visibly hungrier.

Bear in mind your also increasing the metabolism of any bacteria and or parasite the fish might be infected with. Increased metabolism means increased replication and unless you know what it is your up against can more often than not be counter productive.

Yes, there are a few parasites and even less strains of bacteria that are not heat tolerant, but there are many many more that could care less, and will just multiply that must faster in increased temperatures.

Also remember that water at a higher temperature will hold less oxygen, and if your fish is having issues with breathing due to gill damage, this will just add that much more stress to the fish.

Not trying to pick on you, this rant is for everyone that might happen to read this thread. next to useless salt baths (dips are fine), the automatic raising of tank temperature is one of my pet peeves.

[nausky]

Gotcha. Well, will do then. It's only been up like that for 1 day. I raised it pretty slowly.

[Guppy1957]

prefer

New development for sure. Now I'm really concerned for the fish and it's showing nothing I'm familiar with. After eating, the fish falls on its side in a corner and gasps. I thought it was dying two days ago when it did this. But within the hour it was back upright and looking relatively normal. Happens every time it eats and the type of food doesn't appear to matter.

It's still eating, although it's no longer in its usual hiding spot. It moved to a corner of the aquarium where waste accumulates (obviously I don't want it here but I assume it's there due to the water flow depositing it there)

I'm pretty sure I'm just experiencing it's slow and strange decline but maybe someone will have an idea.

the larger discus is constantly proclaiming it's dominance perhaps a young form of maturity, I am a strict believer in allowing each pet to have room in the aquarium to dominate their own space, strong or moderate water current is not a normal nor desirable place where discus are found in the wild. my aquariums circulate water in moderation, i use plants, drift wood, and sculptured rocks to decorate and give each pet their own room .. if the aquarium living room is not their favorite hangout overfed. overfeeding keeps the pets healthy well fed and less competitive so that every one is happy and the less aggressive pets can bloom and the more aggressive ones chill out feeding time is no longer a contest always won by the aquarium king i place food in many places so everyone can claims their own dinner plate and feel like a king. i use a broad scope diet everything the pets normally will eat in the wild plus as many varieties of nutrition as possible, all kinds of freeze dried worms, different quality flake and tiny pellet foods as well as fresh home made foods as recommended by Mark Weiss and other proven discus experts. if all actions still fails remove the discus wipe the growth with sterile cotton and bring it to a lab for analysis, gut feeling it maybe a parasite or old wound scar.
good luck
Guppy 1957

[pcsb23]

Raising the temp is all well and good when we know what it is and/or the fish is otherwise healthy and needs a "bump start" as it were. The consequences of raising the temp when a fish may have compromised gill function (and yours might) is that it then gets hit with a double whammy. In truth any sick fish gets hit with this double whammy, it's just harder when their gill function is fubar'd.

The first part is the water is now holding less dissolved O2 yet the fish is now having to work harder as it's metabolism is raised. So there is already less available O2 but it's demand is higher so now it has to breath much harder ... and so it goes on. End result is a stressed animal.

The second part is that the vast majority of pathogens will propagate faster at higher temperatures, so the demands on the fishes immune system also increase which also requires more energy, which requires it to breath faster yet we have reduced the available O2. End result is an overwhelmed immune system.

Put those two together and the fish is on a loser. Suddenly raising the temperature isn't quite so safe ...

The "stuff" coming from the gills looks to slime - the gill membranes have a thin covering, but if they get irritated then they produce more - just as the skin of the fish does. I would take the fish out of the water and lift it's gill cover and take a look. Either way though, as it is sloughing slime from the gills, something is irritating them.

The most common irritant is something in the water, i.e. water quality. This is the hardest to convince people of too, and I know what you will be saying whilst you are reading this too ... "well my water quality is spot on ..." it may be, it may also not be.

With larger fish we can flush the gills, but usually with discus it is easier and less stressful (to both the fish and us) to use a salt dip. The key here is the tank it goes back into should be clean. http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Do-a-Salt-Dip - I'd only do one dip though.

You mentioned getting a scope, this is one of those times when a scope is useful - provided you know what to look for. It would rule in/out flukes etc ...

As for treatment, you could go with furan-2, it wouldn't be the worst choice here. I tend to use chloramine-t for this type of thing, but this med takes great care and you must understand the relationship between hardness, pH and required dose to use it. You need to dose more in higher pH water, but be warned, blow a dose of C-T and there is no road back.

[Quintin]

Im just a biginer but the laying down when eating could that not be swimbladder.My fish did it once and i added epsom salts the tank was a mess in the morning with poop size of a cats but my fish never laid down again.Check your water for traces of chlorine as that could also dammage the gills causing them to gasp

[nausky]

Thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions.

First i want to give the full disclosure on the cleaning methods that went into this tank, since water quality is almost always the culprit.

I religiously do 50% WCs daily (with the aged water I described in my first post. The water drum is very clean BTW.), and no less than every other day when I'm just too busy. My filters are cleaned monthly and I was only doing a really good wipe down once a month. Since I made this thread I've bumped that up to daily and I just recently removed all of the decor that has been neglected as far as cleaning goes. I do have to add that the decor is relatively new though.

I don't religiously check water parameters but every time I did (always the reaction to seeing a fish not looking well) there were no surprises.

I do have a vet fried that refuses to do any fish work but maybe he'll humor me with this since it doesn't seem too daunting for him to take a look at the gills with his equipment.

[brewmaster15]

Thank you all for the thoughts and suggestions.

First i want to give the full disclosure on the cleaning methods that went into this tank, since water quality is almost always the culprit.

I religiously do 50% WCs daily (with the aged water I described in my first post. The water drum is very clean BTW.), and no less than every other day when I'm just too busy. My filters are cleaned monthly and I was only doing a really good wipe down once a month. Since I made this thread I've bumped that up to daily and I just recently removed all of the decor that has been neglected as far as cleaning goes. I do have to add that the decor is relatively new though.

I don't religiously check water parameters but every time I did (always the reaction to seeing a fish not looking well) there were no surprises.

I do have a vet fried that refuses to do any fish work but maybe he'll humor me with this since it doesn't seem too daunting for him to take a look at the gills with his equipment.

Apologies if I missed this, but you mentioned in the questionaire you used 100% municiple water. You don't mention how your treat that. Do you know if you have chloramines or chlorine in your water? How do you treat for muniple chemicals?


I think a salt dip is a good idea as a first round of treatment...and agree with Paul that something is irritating the Gills... Not sure what at this point but something. It may be an opportunistic bacteria thats gotten established.

-al

[nausky]

I use Seachem Safe and I dose right before the water change. We certainly have chloramines present in the water here. Additionally, my pH is off of the high range API test kit chart (so 8.8 or higher) and after 24 hours of aging (I have a pump & an airstone in the barrel) it drops to 8.0. The tank itself is 7.8 every time I test.

I've been trying to attentively sit around waiting for poops and I finally caught my leopard having one. Since they aren't eating much it was hard. Half of it was clear and quite long, the only reason I noticed it was due to bubbles attached. So it sounds like that isn't going to help diagnose anything. The large blue fish has been at the surface gasping and he hasn't been caring much about his orientation anymore... So something really bad happened to them and he's doing a lot worse than she is. I haven't seen him eat in over a week now. When you say salt dip, do you mean aquarium salt or epsom? Epsom was mentioned earlier in the thread and I just want to make sure we're on the right page.