levamisole

[nc0gnet0]

IIRC, there is little difference between the two (HCl vs non HCl), I believe that the HCl version is a little easier to dissolve in water. This is a good question for Al to chime in on.

[ProBreeders]

So, I got in touch with the people at AngelPlus and he tells me "It's a powder. No other form can be 100%."

Now, i'm really confused.

[nc0gnet0]

So, I got in touch with the people at AngelPlus and he tells me "It's a powder. No other form can be 100%."

Now, i'm really confused.

Your really stressing too much about this. I am almost sure the angels plus is the HCL version, but if you want to read a little about the difference, here it is:

http://www.loaches.com/disease-treat...ydrochloride-1

[brewmaster15]

Your really stressing too much about this. I am almost sure the angels plus is the HCL version, but if you want to read a little about the difference, here it is:

http://www.loaches.com/disease-treat...ydrochloride-1

I agree with Rick Here. I can't confirm if the Levamisole that Angels plus carries is Levamisole HCL. But I suspect it is. The HCL just makes it more soluable ...I have honestly never seen a powered or dry form of Levamisole offered that was not HCL. Reason being is we are using in an extra label fashion. Mfgs aren't thinking about us using it in a fish tank..but they are Manufactured and marketed to the agriculture industry largely to be added to drinking water for animals or for oral dosing. For that to work it has to be soluble. The only place I would see a need for non-HCL would be pharmaceutical grade, or possible human Prescription but even then, many human meds have HCL added.

A note on Purity as well... and I may be openning a can of worms here but If you can get Pure, great... however hundreds of members here have used a pigeon dewormer...vermisol, which is loaded with inert carriers.

The functional dose I use is 2ppm bath 24 hours based on the University of Florida Aquatic Pathology Dept.

I would say you can safely use 2pmm- 4 ppm as a guideline. Like all things you will see people advocate using more because of course, More is innately better,works better and it doesnt hurt that its better for business. , hopefully no one actually believes that (except that its better for business) ! I personally have never seen anything written by a Aquatic Pathologist that shows that 2 pp-4ppm was not effective. That would take comparative research and experiments. Often I hear... "I dosed the fish at this dose and it didn't work, but when I dosed it at this dose, the fish amazingly turned around and recovered."Which basically means nothing, for all you know the fishes immune system kicked in, but know we have the beginning of the Urban legend.

Levamisol is a medication, dosage needs to be based on Science....not guesses and a few isolated observations. This is a huge problem we have in the Fish Hobby, and The trend I see with levamisol is use is going down the same path Metronidazole has gone where more and more is recommended and used..and nobody has a clue why, but the urban legend has become fact. I seriously caution against that, but thats just the ravings of a concern and cynical Biology Nut.

al

[nc0gnet0]

Just for the record, I emailed Angels Plus and their levamisole is levamisole HCL.


-Rick

[ProBreeders]

The only reason I'm asking so many questions because i use it every time i get new fishes and plants.

So, ho many people here used it before, but worms came back?
(also how much of it did you use?)

I'm a bit worried since I got the email saying if not used enough, over time the worms can be immune to the HCl meds. I did a google search on this and other sources confirmed it. I mean, I guess I can use a bit more just to be on the safe side, but I would rather know exactly what others had used successfully.

[timmy82]

I use avitrol plus which is levamisole & prasiquantil and have good results. I use it in a liquid form but it also comes in a tablet form too. The only down fall with the liquid after the 24hrs it must be a sub ingredient that produces a clear / pale slime film. I just do the 75 - 90% water change and wipe down and all is fine. It has worked well for me and gives the broader range of coverage but if you have pleco's ect it isn't recomended.

[brewmaster15]

The only reason I'm asking so many questions because i use it every time i get new fishes and plants.

So, ho many people here used it before, but worms came back?
(also how much of it did you use?)

I'm a bit worried since I got the email saying if not used enough, over time the worms can be immune to the HCl meds. I did a google search on this and other sources confirmed it. I mean, I guess I can use a bit more just to be on the safe side, but I would rather know exactly what others had used successfully.

The problem with this argument isn't that in theory its not wrong. Parasites can become immune to medications just as bacteria can. The problem is making an assumption that the 2ppm dose that is recommended by many pathologists is inadequate to kill worms and that you need a higher dose. I'll ask this, What worm species are you treating?What worm species have been been reported to be immune to 2ppm? and which of these have been lab tested and confirmed as such? Even among a species, a disconnected populations can have various degrees of immunity, doesn't mean the whole population has become resistant. Since hobbyists rarely have these answers and most of the time are just guessing their fish even have worms. I would rather see people at least follow what the pathologists recommend for dosing.... throwing more meds than needed has a higher likely hood of doing damage to the fish and can still lead to resistance developing since you still don't know for sure that you killed all the worms. Ideally we would like complete eradication of the worms, but unless you sacrifice the fish, how would know? Because so and so said it after treating their tanks in such a fashion?

I'll re-state my point again, That I have yet to see a paper that showed that 8, 10, 13, 15 ppm bath is more effective than 2ppm... and if one does exist, I am pretty sure that the researchers looked at a particular species of worm, in a particular species of fish, and under a particular set of water parameters, and not necessarily the worm you are dealing with.

Ideally, if you want to be 100 % sure... send a fish to the lab for analysis, University of Florida is very reasonable on the rates....Then you will know for sure what you are dealing with, and they can advise you exactly what medicine works best and at what dose.

In some countries the medications are so restricted that they have a hard time getting meds for their fish without a prescription. When I see advise on dosing given like is frequent with Metronidazole, praziquantel, and recently Levamisole, I really do wonder if our easy access to these meds here in the USA is a good thing.

Just like in Humans, the dose of medication used should never be more than is needed.

best always,
Al

[timmy82]

The problem with this argument isn't that in theory its not wrong. Parasites can become immune to medications just as bacteria can. The problem is making an assumption that the 2ppm dose that is recommended by many pathologists is inadequate to kill worms and that you need a higher dose. I'll ask this, What worm species are you treating?What worm species have been been reported to be immune to 2ppm? and which of these have been lab tested and confirmed as such? Even among a species, a disconnected populations can have various degrees of immunity, doesn't mean the whole population has become resistant. Since hobbyists rarely have these answers and most of the time are just guessing their fish even have worms. I would rather see people at least follow what the pathologists recommend for dosing.... throwing more meds than needed has a higher likely hood of doing damage to the fish and can still lead to resistance developing since you still don't know for sure that you killed all the worms. Ideally we would like complete eradication of the worms, but unless you sacrifice the fish, how would know? Because so and so said it after treating their tanks in such a fashion?

I'll re-state my point again, That I have yet to see a paper that showed that 8, 10, 13, 15 ppm bath is more effective than 2ppm... and if one does exist, I am pretty sure that the researchers looked at a particular species of worm, in a particular species of fish, and under a particular set of water parameters, and not necessarily the worm you are dealing with.

Ideally, if you want to be 100 % sure... send a fish to the lab for analysis, University of Florida is very reasonable on the rates....Then you will know for sure what you are dealing with, and they can advise you exactly what medicine works best and at what dose.

In some countries the medications are so restricted that they have a hard time getting meds for their fish without a prescription. When I see advise on dosing given like is frequent with Metronidazole, praziquantel, and recently Levamisole, I really do wonder if our easy access to these meds here in the USA is a good thing.

Just like in Humans, the dose of medication used should never be more than is needed.

best always,
Al

Great points Al, I belive that the best action is preventions as much as humanly possible. Clean water and clean enviroment. The elevated dosages may not have a short term effect but more in the long term could end up with organ failures ect for unexplaned reasons at the time. I think of it like us breathing if you breathing in exhaust gasses and toxic fumes all the time your health is going to go down hill same with what ever the fish has in their water it is all absorbed into their body.

[ProBreeders]

...The elevated dosages may not have a short term effect but more in the long term could end up with organ failures ect for unexplaned reasons at the time. I think of it like us breathing if you breathing in exhaust gasses and toxic fumes all the time your health is going to go down hill same with what ever the fish has in their water....

It's a 24 hour bath, not a life long session. It's highly unlikely there will be any long term effects. When I had my tank infested with nematodes, nothing got rid of them, other then levamisole hcl powder (not even copper which should be able to kill anything.) So, all i know is, I don't want to get them again, so i QT anything new I get. Treat it once, and i'm done. It's not going to be a every day thing where I'll be treating the same fishes over and over.

[Second Hand Pat]

The point Timmy was making is levamisole remains in the tissues of the fish long after the bath is completed perhaps resulting in harmful long term effects.

[ProBreeders]

I do value everyone's input, but after weighting my options i'll take my chances since it's better then my fishes suffering from worms who can be immune from dosing too little.

[Ginger]

From time to time I am asked where i get my levamisole.

http://subquaria.com/Levamisole-HCl-Powder

-Rick

Can anyone tell me what the measure is of the scoop that Subquaria includes in the Levamisole package? Mine has Asian figures and the numerals .25. I am guessing that is probably .25 grams, but I want to be sure.

I only need .6 grams, as I am dosing 8 gallons in a hospital tank. (And yes, I will be also dosing my display tank.) I have a scale, but it doesn't register even 5 scoops of Levamisole...

I wrote Subquaria, but I haven't heard from them yet.

-Ginger