Why Are Water Changes Necessary?

[Robbo89]

Maybe a controversial comment to make, and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it to any extent, but:

Has anyone ever questioned wether super-feeding and speed-growing discus is really such a good idea? Sure it gives you visible results (8 inch discus), but so would using growth hormones... and lets be honest, there isn't really that much difference between that and the way we speed grow our fish. Both aim to achieve an unnatural level and/or rate of growth.

Discus are a living organism, and nature doesn't play by rules. Your fish will not either be stunted or grow huge. There are a million in betweens. If you dump then in a tank and neglect them then sure stunted growth and disease could be expected, but look after them to any normal extent and they will be fine. Maybe not show quality giants but they will be happy and healthy fish, and as an aquarist that's all we should want.

Just my two cents, feel free to disagree with it. After all, it's just advice, do whatever you want to do

Cheers!

[Larry Bugg]

Has anyone ever questioned wether super-feeding and speed-growing discus is really such a good idea? Sure it gives you visible results (8 inch discus), but so would using growth hormones... and lets be honest, there isn't really that much difference between that and the way we speed grow our fish. Both aim to achieve an unnatural level and/or rate of growth.

Ok, so here is where the disagreement begins. I don't believe we are "super-feeding" and "speed-growing" our discus. All creatures have a growth cycle and that cycle specifies a specific period of time that growth occurs. With discus that growth occurs up until around 1 1/2 and 2 years of age. After that growth is minimal. We know from wild discus that adults grow to be 6" to 7 1/2 or 8". All my adult wilds (I currently have around 30) fit into this range. Back when I first started keeping discus and didn't feed enough and didn't change enough water I could never reach this size. In fact they ended up in the 4" to 4 1/2" range and the growth quit. I'm not quite sure where this 8" size came from but most of us do not expect to reach that size. I currently have 1 wild and 1 domestic that come close to 8" but most of my adults are in the 6" to 7" range which is normal.

[nc0gnet0]

Sure it gives you visible results (8 inch discus), but so would using growth hormones... and lets be honest, there isn't really that much difference between that and the way we speed grow our fish

Honestly, the two are worlds apart. Like Larry, I am not sure where this whole 8" discus thing started, that's like saying if I had fed my kids 6x a day they would have achieved a height of 7'+

We are however not satisfied with sub 5 1/2" fish

Most of us on here are not advocates of extreme power feeding, we are however advocates of good water quality.

[John_Nicholson]

Ok I disagree but I also agree with some of it. I overfeed my discus twice a day, I siphon the tanks twice a day, and change waer either once or twice a day depending on stocking level. I probably grow fish out larger than most.....and like Larry said few people have every seen an 8 inch discus much less owned one. The average person misses the length of their discus by at least one inch and I have seen them miss but as much as 3.

On the disagree comparing good care with growth hormones is horse chit.

-john

Maybe a controversial comment to make, and I'm not saying I agree or disagree with it to any extent, but:

Has anyone ever questioned wether super-feeding and speed-growing discus is really such a good idea? Sure it gives you visible results (8 inch discus), but so would using growth hormones... and lets be honest, there isn't really that much difference between that and the way we speed grow our fish. Both aim to achieve an unnatural level and/or rate of growth.

Discus are a living organism, and nature doesn't play by rules. Your fish will not either be stunted or grow huge. There are a million in betweens. If you dump then in a tank and neglect them then sure stunted growth and disease could be expected, but look after them to any normal extent and they will be fine. Maybe not show quality giants but they will be happy and healthy fish, and as an aquarist that's all we should want.

Just my two cents, feel free to disagree with it. After all, it's just advice, do whatever you want to do

Cheers!

[OC Discus]

Ok. We have some heavy hitters weighing in on this discussion. Let me throw out a question:

In a fish room with with 10 or 20 tanks and sponge filters, turning a valve to drain 50-100% of the water, then turning another valve to fill them back up is clearly the easiest, fastest, and most cost effective way to keep good water quality and healthy fish.

Can the same results be obtained with a more advanced filtration system and large, but less than daily water changes? By results, lets say we are raising a group from 3" to 7". Can that be achieved in both systems in the same amount of time?

Tank A- Sponge filter- daily 50% wc
Tank B- Advanced filtration system- multiple filters- HOB and canister, floss and bio pads, purigen reactor, air stones, and 80% wc once or twice per week

Same feeding schedule. Answers from experience only please.

[nc0gnet0]

Tank B- Advanced filtration system- multiple filters- HOB and canister, floss and bio pads, purigen reactor, air stones, and 80% wc once or twice per week

That's not an advanced filtration system by any stretch of the imagination. Over filtration perhaps, advanced no.

So the answer to your question, assuming normal stocking conditions, is no.

[John_Nicholson]

In my opinion no, but I have done it my way for a very long time and it has always given me great results. This means I really have not tried the other way. I have read about lots of people on here trying it but was some reason they never seem to hang around a long time. Nearly all of the long term hobbyist do at least some form of the same thing that I do.

-john

[OC Discus]

So your saying a fish can't be grown to 7" under normal stocking conditions in the Tank B scenario?

That's not an advanced filtration system by any stretch of the imagination. Over filtration perhaps, advanced no.

So the answer to your question, assuming normal stocking conditions, is no.

[John_Nicholson]

Not impossible but much less likely. There are always exceptions to every rule, but do you want to spend good money on fish in hopes that you are the exception?

-john

So your saying a fish can't be grown to 7" under normal stocking conditions in the Tank B scenario?

[nc0gnet0]

So your saying a fish can't be grown to 7" under normal stocking conditions in the Tank B scenario?

I am saying that the tank A scenario will give you consistently better results, and the two would not be comparable.

When I think advanced, I am thinking drum filters with 60 micron sieves, massive UV and/or ozone reactors to keep ORP levels up, not just tossing on an extra hob or two.

You would be just much better off lowering the stocking density in the tank "b" scenario, rather than employing a few extra HOB's or sponges.

[OC Discus]

I'm not trying to create an argument, but expose positive alternatives for those who do not have a fish room plumbed so water can be changed so easily every day. I think plenty of folks have grown them to 6" in something similar to the tank B scenario. I just think we owe it to folks to help them do the best they can with what they have rather than give up on the hobby because they can't do what someone else is doing.

Again, there is a difference in breeding tanks and breeding rooms and display tanks in the living room. I agree no alternative is better than 100% fresh water every day. But that is much easier with small tanks in a fish room than large tanks in a living room.

[nc0gnet0]

lets say we are raising a group from 3" to 7"

I think plenty of folks have grown them to 6" in something similar to the tank B scenario.

Tank B- Advanced filtration system- multiple filters- HOB and canister, floss and bio pads, purigen reactor, air stones, and 80% wc once or twice per week

For starters you have dropped a full inch off the target.

Second, in your tank "b" scenario, there is a big difference between one 80% water change a week then two.

Assuming just one, and with normal stocking densities I have seen here (lets say 6-10 3" juvies in a 55-75 gallon tank), I am saying a lot MORE people will not reach the target size then those that do.

As you increase your tank size, or decrease your stocking levels, your results will start to improve, but it still will take you a pretty good sized tank (again with one water change per week) to begin to become comparable to scenario a.

[Larry Bugg]

I would have to ask if there are plenty of folks that have grown them to 6" in your scenario then where are they and why haven't we heard from them? The bottom line is we don't hear from them and that would lead one to believe there aren't plenty of them out there. I'm with Rick and John, adding extra filtration isn't going to make that much difference IMO. Adding a HOB or canister isn't going to get the same results as a water change. Just won't happen. Now if you are really taking about advance filtration as Rick pointed out then that is a different story, maybe.

As for automated fish rooms having an advantage over the living room Show tank owner I have to say bunk. Yup, I turn a valve and empty my tanks and I turn another valve and fill them back up (one at a time not the group at once) but keep in mind that I have 41 tanks at 1370 gallons. The process isn't done in 5 minutes. I probably spend at a minimum 1 hour a day and several on the weekends maintaining the fish room. Surely the living room Show tank owner could take care of that one big tank you refer to in a lot less time than I spend a day. If a person wants to grow out discus it is manageable.

[Keith Perkins]

...I just think we owe it to folks to help them do the best they can with what they have rather than give up on the hobby because they can't do what someone else is doing...

This sort of circles back to my previous post.

You can still keep them, they just won't reach their potential with only 2 WCs a week.

Some people are perfectly happy keeping average or even below average discus, as long as they're healthy. Good food, a tank that's lightly or at least not overstocked, and 2 or 3 big WCs a week will usually accomplish this. This of course is assuming they bought healthy fish to begin with, which can be a big assumption.

[nc0gnet0]

Seems to me a recall a contest once.....some people were saying they could do well without daily water changes...........