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Thread: Whirling Disease

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    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Whirling Disease

    I came across a very cool video on YouTube about wild Altums studied in the wild (link to video: Video). I checked the description of the video and they have a website, so I visited the website which is: Wildfishaquarium.com, but unfortunately it is all in spanish. However, I read spanish and I found the information very well done and interesting. One article in particular stood out to me, which of course is what the title states here, it's about the "whirling disease". It caught my attention because I remember Matt going through this problem.

    I'll link the article here: "A problem called "F1", "Turmix" or "Tornado sickness" or "Whirling Disease" "

    Here is a google translation of the whole article. Keep in mind, following a full blown translation can be difficult because it will try to translate literal word for word, but the essense of the piece is there. Keep in mind that when it translates "Tornado Disease" it translates it to read "Disease of the Tournament" which is obviously not translated correctly.

    Without further ado, here is the translation:

    "A PROBLEM CALLED "F1", "TURMIX" or "disease of the Tournament" or "Whirling Disease"


    A PROBLEM CALLED "F1", "TURMIX" or "disease of the Tournament" or "Whirling Disease"

    First of all and in these cases it is essential, I want to clarify that I am not a scientist to corroborate the subject matter but I could be watching and learning certain things with over the years.

    I am simply passionate about tropical fish and as such, a curious constant of these wonderful animals.

    If you are reading this because your fish are turning and doing crazy races against all the elements that have on the road (or ever have). Well, I think these lines I will help.



    F1's disease, Turmix Illness Tournament or Whirling Disease in fish Discs is one of many problems that arise when we want to start with a staff, in my case has always happened to me wild Discus (as I think are much more likely than hybrids), but the question is: what affects us, is actually this disease?

    An important clarification:

    One important thing is to make it clear that only expose my unscientific thinking but with many hours of observation that lead me to think that the disease Tournament has NOTHING to do with these attacks in the Discus fish

    With regard to the meaning of "F1" to this problem, because in the forums speaking the name of the category Formula 1 racing was derived due to the high speed take fish during turns on an imaginary axis and during the race taking Discus sweeping away everything you have on the road including the aquarium glass.

    Let's review first tournament disease:



    Whirling disease Tournament or Disease:

    The disease Tournament is caused by a myxosporideo protozoan parasite, "Myxoxoma cerebralis" which comes in the form of spores to fish staying within it, through tissues to reach the cartilage by this is that when a fish is sick is very likely that other fish are also (first difference with what happens to our Discus, since often these affected one individual turning movements and the others are no problem and never get to show symptoms) .

    Another important point is that the disease Tournament is affecting cold water fish, so it is as well known in Pscicultura trout by disasters in nature also as it was in Montana USA down record 90% of trout Arco Iris in the Madison river. Also much affects Cyprinids such as tents and Carasiuss (when cold water is another reason to think hard affect Discus).

    The symptoms of this disease is that fish swim in circles to death (do quick runs into walls or objects but swimming is the problem, another reason to distrust! Since discus swimming in circles and out QUICKLY fired at full speed without worrying about what you have before).

    Second fish having the disease Tournament or "Whirling Disease" exhibit skeletal deformities (live long enough to experience these symptoms when discus "last" only 24 hours., Or 48 h. In the best ).



    Lifecycle Myxoxoma cerebralis

    A very good thing to know is the cycle of the disease:

    (From page www.flyfishing-argentina.com) written by the prestigious Mr. Silvia Ortubay.

    The life cycle of Myxobolus cerebralis is complex and involves two hosts (an aquatic worm and a fish) and produces two very different types of spores. A guy up the spores that develop on infected fish called myxospores. These are released to the environment after the death and decomposition of the fish that contained or feces of infected fish-eating predators (birds, other fish, mammals). According to Russian researchers the myxospores can remain viable for more than 30 years in the dried mud. They are resistant to freezing (-20 ° C remained viable), to a variety of chemical treatments and gastric juices of the piscivorous animals. The spores are less resistant to heat. (for another against the disease in the discus)



    The parasite's life cycle continues when these myxospores are ingested by Tubifex tubifex worm a water tolerant polluted waters. The parasite gut worm affects approximately 3 months and begins to produce a different type of spore, the triactinomyxon, which is the infective stage for trout. This infective form survives only a few days and can be released from infected tubifícidos up to a year after infection. Transmission of the disease occurs when the fish infected with triactinomyxon worms are ingested by trout or when tubifícidos release the causal agent in susceptible fish waters. Once the parasite in the fish begins to divide and increase their number while moving through the epidermis, dermis, until the cartilage which actively feeds. Spore formation increases with temperature and occurs prior to the onset of symptoms of the disease, including 4-5 months after infection. (Our discus because I never saw a tubifex or had contact with water or other fish if fed Tubifex, begin to rotate and hit the glass??)



    For all this I thought my discus fish had never contracted the disease and began to wonder more.
    • Why which begins with First Spins on an axis is USUALLY the Alfa or fish that eats more?
    • Why the faster starting with Giros was when it came to Wild Discus?
    • Why the more water changes did it felt was worse?
    • Why the more pure (salt) was water, ie containing less salt, the fish were more likely to turn?
    • And finally in wild, because at the time that seemed super adapted not afraid of anything and feeding impressively, I was the next day with fish turning and crashing against the glass?



    These responses led me to think that it was for nothing Myxoxoma cerebralis.



    When I reviewed the symptoms and how to cure this terrible "disease" I realized it is not a disease but is closely linked to an INTERNAL INTOXICATION animal.



    Symptoms of internal poisoning:

    The first thing is when we talk about this problem is that the fish after feeding for days abundantly displayed with their fully erect fins and bars very pronounced stress is usually fish at that time is the dominant or a of the key, he looks nervous and quite scary, so that the mere presence of the aquarist (which should be used) quickly seek refuge.




    Classic image of a S. heckel to start attacks. Note the dark eye and bristling fins.

    The second step and a "degree" advanced the problem is that the movements of the fish looking to stay perpendicular to the ground which is very complicated and it tends to go sideways.

    Finally the fish starts spinning in circles at high speed like a whirlwind to fly out against everything that this later including crystals. The blow is such as to make the fish dies or is completely knocked out.

    These movements are constantly and without a specific time between attacks occur.

    But something that a lot of attention is that USUALLY the fish eating more food and better adapted this to our eyes is the beginning with the problem and usually say this because many times those who are the most adapted, which also have much of the food in the stomach, can be victims.



    Causes of the attacks:

    The first thing to keep in mind that these symptoms do not appear are the following points.
    • Something important (for me) are the salts dissolved in the water. Something very common in wild fish is when we use pure RO water, it has to be replenished with discus salts or mixture of water mains, many fans used pure discus Osmosis and know that this water in its purest form is not gives good results is always important to maintain a conductivity of more than 300us. At least!. We have explained that water without salt has many stability problems PH, few bacteria, etc..
    • Another determining factor as above and the amount of food. We know that Discus fish is a glutton and eat all you can to be very busy. This and the low conductivity of water is a fatal combination for poisoning the animal. The fish with the passing of the days begin to get desperate for food so much so that a wild fish a week can eat adaptation to the owner's hand!, Is so desperate for food that we must be vigilant and not overfeed.



    But secondary factors that influence:

    In very soft water with low conductivities the water pH fluctuates a lot and always tends to rise, an effect that is called alkalosis. Acids react in a way that increases the PH rather than lower it. Something fatal Discus fish for several reasons:
    • In very soft and with little salt water practically bacteria are reduced in proportion impressionable therefore no rapid cycling and ammonia nitrogen in ammonium ion represented (NH4) accumulates in large quantities.
    • When the pH begins to rise the ammonium ion is converted into ammonia (NH3) and this fatal Discus fish poisoning producing this gas.
    • The fish is subject to constant changes in PH weakening against any disease.



    Other problems are the water changes with water that should be ready with same parameters and aged aquarium base ie PH, KH, salts and identical temperature.

    If they start racing and Money:

    I was unable to rescue (not to say cure) to several S. and S. aequisfasciata heckel once they start to turn and do as follows which gave me very good results:

    Always 1-I have a tank of about 50 to 80 liters vegetated and stable without fish. As I see bristling with fins and bars constantly marked stress or rotate or start racing the step directly to the tank that has very similar parameters to the main tank (with water from the main tank and a set time). Plants are to remove any traces of nitrogen compounds (ammonia, No3).
    2 - NO FOOD. Something important since we know that the full stomach of the animal is the problem and is suffering poisoning that affects your whole nervous system.
    3-24 hours without lights at 32 ° C. (I do it only for 24 hours because plants need light, but the goal is not to expose more stress to the animal and lower your daytime activity)

    4-Increase the main aquarium salt because it is very likely that if the other fish ate much attacks occur in them .. Note that the salts may vary and down without realizing if we use such as peat, this "softens "pulling down the water conductivity.

    Although the most common is that the sales rise, the opposite often happens when working with very soft water.
    5 - If the fish is not intoxicated enough lives without problems, but is prone to attack if it feeds much immediately. For this we must leave it a few weeks and slowly strengthen to live and good quality food.



    conclusion:

    After reading much about it and review my own experience (along with many of the forums) came to the conclusion that it is not disease Tournament or Whirling disease since the fish recovered not continue with attacks if they are kept stable parameters and remember that tournament disease would not cure.

    What I have is very clear that the low conductivity ratio - much power is fatal to fish that are not adapted to the aquarium.

    When we see the conductivities of different biotopes of the discus we realize the soft, acidic and low conductivity that is water and sewage still, but we note that in an aquarium features may change from time to another and it will never be the same as in an open environment.

    I was in biotopes of S. heckel, S aequisfaciata and S haraldi, and I could see and measure their biotopes and water parameters are almost impossible to keep in aquariums so I recommend water with some salt content, stable pH and KH (almost null biotope).

    Saul says something very interesting Sorin, Argentine author aquarium father, in his book "Aquarium Installation and Maintenance Volume I" on page 182



    "Under normal conditions, the concentration of ammonia in the body of the fish is higher than in the aquarium water. This is because adding the vital processes continually ammonia body fluids, while in the aquarium, biological filtration, removes part of that gas. The result is the flow, diffusion, of ammoniacal waste products from the fish water.

    In abnormal cases, high concentration of ammonia water, malfunction of the filtration system, the normal excretory process can be inhibited and in extreme conditions may reverse the normal flow of ammonia and the concentration of this in body fluids increase. The fish, in this situation, they should adjust the levels of ammonia, converting it into other nitrogen products in the excretory system. If this does not happen, the fish can not excrete waste products as ammonia and intoxicate. "



    This is very interesting as it has much in soft water the number of nitrifying bacteria is very low compared to other water and ammonia could be that the time is increased by producing problems in fish. Often we measure NH3/NH4 but the aquarium is a closed environment and at the time of supply or excretory (often the same) the ammonia could have some significant increase.



    Another interesting item is the one that was published in Aquarius Practical Number 84 in relation to marine fish Banggai cardinalfish, in which they explain that in the fry food that gave gave him the fish started with these symptoms (very similar to f1). After a term argo research scientist in charge of the investigation (Alejandro A. Vagelli) concluded that the problem arose from the dietary deficiency of polyunsaturated acids (PUFA) of -3 and -6 series, which are very important for normal neurological development and behavior in marine fish.

    By this I do not mean that in the discus this is the problem, but certainly inadequate diet can trigger these attacks more than anything sensitive or delicate fish and they are used to very specific parameters. Or the combination of inadequate food and water that does not have the elements that the fish needs for proper digestion.

    Anyway, there are many questions of why the fish is poisoned and it would be interesting to know for sure that is what causes this intoxication but what I can say is that there is no way to save them.



    It would be great to tell their experiences to see among all that we can continue to learn more about these wonderful fish called Discus.

    Marcelo Jorge Fernandez"

    Again, please visit the site if you would like to translate more articles at: WildFishAquarium.com

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Hi There,

    Thanks so much for this artickle. Aldough it is not perfect translated it hold enough info to understand what is written.\

    Some of you might know I was on the point of quiting discus until I got a spawn (Lago Amana x Nhamunda red). The reason was I bought many discus in the last couple of years and time after time I lost fish. I had the issues described in this artickel. It started with a healthy fish and after some time the first signs set in like described in the artickle. Spread fins, turn dark, skittish and jumpy. After a couple of day's the fish darted around the tank like a mad one, acting like it was followed by something, turn sidewards and seem to look at the bottom or surface and starting to bounce very hard into the tankwalls. At the time I kept my fish at 28C, and 160 micro Siemens doing a 70% water change every other day. I talked to Hustinx Belgium and they explained all those large water changes were no good to wilds. They also adviced to raise the temp to 30C or 31C and a conductivety of 330 microSiemens. I'm not the person who takes everything for granted but I at least could try and see what happened. Slowly I raised the temp and also the conductivity. A lot of people told me wilds should be at a low conductivity so I was very carefull. Once I hit the 250 microSiemens my fish start to look more comfortable. I still did not want to decrease the water changes becouse discus need clean water right? I still lost fish. The more water changes I did the more issues I seem to get. Desperate I did reduced the water changes and hoped my discus would make it. And yes,....things went more and more stable. I found that 2 or 3 times a week 30% to 40% wc was the amount the fish prefered. But to be able to keep the water clean enough I need to pay more attention to feeding. In the end I had 3 fish left in a 90 gallon tank. Two of them paired up and are still doing great.

    So back to the article I can confirm a lot of things and even the best looking fish (often the dominant one) was alway's the one I lost.

    The article does not mention temperature but I'm fairly sure it is involved as well. It might be related to metabolism in combination with the food.

    My current routines:
    I do 2 times a week 40% water change
    Temp 30C
    mixture of RO and tap water (50/50)
    conductivity 350 microSiemens
    2 feeds a day

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    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by Dutch dude View Post
    Hi There,

    Thanks so much for this artickle. Aldough it is not perfect translated it hold enough info to understand what is written.\

    Some of you might know I was on the point of quiting discus until I got a spawn (Lago Amana x Nhamunda red). The reason was I bought many discus in the last couple of years and time after time I lost fish. I had the issues described in this artickel. It started with a healthy fish and after some time the first signs set in like described in the artickle. Spread fins, turn dark, skittish and jumpy. After a couple of day's the fish darted around the tank like a mad one, acting like it was followed by something, turn sidewards and seem to look at the bottom or surface and starting to bounce very hard into the tankwalls. At the time I kept my fish at 28C, and 160 micro Siemens doing a 70% water change every other day. I talked to Hustinx Belgium and they explained all those large water changes were no good to wilds. They also adviced to raise the temp to 30C or 31C and a conductivety of 330 microSiemens. I'm not the person who takes everything for granted but I at least could try and see what happened. Slowly I raised the temp and also the conductivity. A lot of people told me wilds should be at a low conductivity so I was very carefull. Once I hit the 250 microSiemens my fish start to look more comfortable. I still did not want to decrease the water changes becouse discus need clean water right? I still lost fish. The more water changes I did the more issues I seem to get. Desperate I did reduced the water changes and hoped my discus would make it. And yes,....things went more and more stable. I found that 2 or 3 times a week 30% to 40% wc was the amount the fish prefered. But to be able to keep the water clean enough I need to pay more attention to feeding. In the end I had 3 fish left in a 90 gallon tank. Two of them paired up and are still doing great.

    So back to the article I can confirm a lot of things and even the best looking fish (often the dominant one) was alway's the one I lost.

    The article does not mention temperature but I'm fairly sure it is involved as well. It might be related to metabolism in combination with the food.

    My current routines:
    I do 2 times a week 40% water change
    Temp 30C
    mixture of RO and tap water (50/50)
    conductivity 350 microSiemens
    2 feeds a day
    Thank you for sharing your experience and your approach to combat what sounds like a PITA disease.

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

    Also, click here for my 25 group of discus grow out thread


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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Thank you so much for this article. I have been grappling with these issues for over a year and a half. I've lost three of my wild heckels to what I thought was the whirling disease. I don't have time to go into all the details as I'm very busy trying to figure things out and get things right before I go on a three week holiday but I feel I might be getting very close to a breakthrough in my automated water preparation and changing regime... I've started out with a constant drip system using pure RO and things were alright to begin with but a few months later, one of my best heckels started to do the whirling thing. I've lost that one but saved another one who might also have been suffering from the same disease. Anyway, I've stopped the neat RO drip in the last six months or so and started on the 15 % manual daily water change with RO water that had been aged for 24 hours with a few bags of peat in the storage tank. It worked okay but still not perfect. I've then started to experiment with seachem equilibrium and i think it helped a bit. Also I have not been changing water as often as I did in the past and it seems to have made my Heckels much happier. Sorry for jumping all over the place here but the question of using straight RO with low conductivity and the possibility of poisoning the fish (what ever this means) is one that I find very interesting as it may explain some of the problems I've been having. On a good note, three of my Heckels in particular have started to engage in breeding behaviour ( bowing, shaking, cleaning hard surfaces etc) and they are relentless. I don't know if this is down to the addition of guava leaves or due to the fact that my RO membrane had been exhausted for the past month (unbeknown to me) and was producing water at 150 micro Siemens as opposed to 40 Micro Siemens. Although that situation has now been remedied. I'm still not sure if it is entirely right to copy the natural water parameters for Heckel discus in the home aquarium. I have not abandoned the idea as such but there may be some difficulties in maintaining the ionic balance as they say. Calcium and magnesium are constantly being depleted in a closed system unlike the amazon where they may still be in existence despite being altered in some way by the presence of humid acids etc. but I'm speaking not as an expert here just thinking out loud... In my experience, there has never been any issues about a possible ph crash due to low conductivity. I think it may be a balance thing mainly. Anyway I'll get back to this topic of low conductivity in a more detailed and coherent manner later on once I know more about it. I just wanted to share my appreciation of this article.

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by tolga View Post
    Thank you so much for this article. I have been grappling with these issues for over a year and a half. I've lost three of my wild heckels to what I thought was the whirling disease. I don't have time to go into all the details as I'm very busy trying to figure things out and get things right before I go on a three week holiday but I feel I might be getting very close to a breakthrough in my automated water preparation and changing regime... I've started out with a constant drip system using pure RO and things were alright to begin with but a few months later, one of my best heckels started to do the whirling thing. I've lost that one but saved another one who might also have been suffering from the same disease. Anyway, I've stopped the neat RO drip in the last six months or so and started on the 15 % manual daily water change with RO water that had been aged for 24 hours with a few bags of peat in the storage tank. It worked okay but still not perfect. I've then started to experiment with seachem equilibrium and i think it helped a bit. Also I have not been changing water as often as I did in the past and it seems to have made my Heckels much happier. Sorry for jumping all over the place here but the question of using straight RO with low conductivity and the possibility of poisoning the fish (what ever this means) is one that I find very interesting as it may explain some of the problems I've been having. On a good note, three of my Heckels in particular have started to engage in breeding behaviour ( bowing, shaking, cleaning hard surfaces etc) and they are relentless. I don't know if this is down to the addition of guava leaves or due to the fact that my RO membrane had been exhausted for the past month (unbeknown to me) and was producing water at 150 micro Siemens as opposed to 40 Micro Siemens. Although that situation has now been remedied. I'm still not sure if it is entirely right to copy the natural water parameters for Heckel discus in the home aquarium. I have not abandoned the idea as such but there may be some difficulties in maintaining the ionic balance as they say. Calcium and magnesium are constantly being depleted in a closed system unlike the amazon where they may still be in existence despite being altered in some way by the presence of humid acids etc. but I'm speaking not as an expert here just thinking out loud... In my experience, there has never been any issues about a possible ph crash due to low conductivity. I think it may be a balance thing mainly. Anyway I'll get back to this topic of low conductivity in a more detailed and coherent manner later on once I know more about it. I just wanted to share my appreciation of this article.
    Interesting as well. I remember that Matt or someone with wilds mentioned that when they cut back on large water changes and the high percentage of them, the wilds seemed happier. There definitely seems to be a correlation.

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by rickztahone View Post
    Interesting as well. I remember that Matt or someone with wilds mentioned that when they cut back on large water changes and the high percentage of them, the wilds seemed happier. There definitely seems to be a correlation.
    That's what I reported in Matt's post.

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...=1#post1087473

    I have not had any whirling problem since I don't change more than 60% of water each time now. It's been 6+ months and my wild are with the crosses.

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Hi, I've just finished setting the auto water change system draining and filling timers to do a 15% water change twice a week in my 1000litres Heckel tank as I'm preparing to leave for my three weeks holiday. I'm also dosing some seachem equilibrium to the storage water to keep up with the water changes and to raise the GH slightly. Im hoping that this would work out okay fingers crossed as my initial trials of doing water changes less often has already yielded good results. The filter system has also been upgraded to cope with more waist build up. I wouldn't do this for domestics as I know more frequent and larger water changes are necessary for domestics but for wild heckels, this might be the way to go for me at least. Thanks again for posting this article.

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Interesting!

    Yes I found that decreasing water change amount helps. The water change was often what triggered the whirling. I rarely go above 50% now and even then I try to stay lower. I clean the tank but just don't go crazy with it. Increased temp as well, especially during treatment. What I found weird was never more than one discus at a time exhibited the whirling. If that one died, another would start, but never more than 1 at a time.
    -Matt


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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus-n00b View Post
    Interesting!

    Yes I found that decreasing water change amount helps. The water change was often what triggered the whirling. I rarely go above 50% now and even then I try to stay lower. I clean the tank but just don't go crazy with it. Increased temp as well, especially during treatment. What I found weird was never more than one discus at a time exhibited the whirling. If that one died, another would start, but never more than 1 at a time.
    that IS interesting. I wonder why that is. Have your bunch been good after that last scare?

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Matt, I can confirm only one fish at a time shows this behaviour. I have had wilds for over 6 months without any issue and suddenly start to show the earlier described issues. I have not had any issue since I do 2 times a week a 30% to 40% wc.

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Rick, seen nothing since that last metro treatment. Like Dutch Dude, i've dropped my WC percentage for each WC.
    -Matt


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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Matt,

    Can you post your water parameters like temp conductivity (TDS) and number and percentage of water changes? This might be interesting to compare.

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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    I can check more specifically later but my Temp usually runs about 82-84, TDS out of the tap is 90-100, and WC % is usually anywhere under 50%. I try to do WC about every other day, give or take 3-4 times a week in the wild tank.

    Does everyone that has experienced a whirler here keep their fish in bare bottom tanks or tanks with substrate and decor? When I had the issue it seemed like if I stirred up the sand to much during a WC that it really agitated the whirling fish. Now I don't know if it was the WC itself or the stirring of the substrate, but just makes me curious.
    -Matt


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    Mary

    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    I had two wilds that would whirl at the same time. They were in a bb quarantine tank with a couple of pieces of small driftwood and no lighting. I was doing 50% water change every day though and I think maybe that contributed to the whirling. I could never really pinpoint why they would whirl. Sometimes it was after they ate, sometimes after a water change and usually during the day and not so much at night. Still a mystery to me!

    My temp was 84, my tds out of the tap was 150. I didn't age their water at that time.

  15. #15
    Registered Member DiscusOnly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Whirling Disease

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus-n00b View Post
    I can check more specifically later but my Temp usually runs about 82-84, TDS out of the tap is 90-100, and WC % is usually anywhere under 50%. I try to do WC about every other day, give or take 3-4 times a week in the wild tank.

    Does everyone that has experienced a whirler here keep their fish in bare bottom tanks or tanks with substrate and decor? When I had the issue it seemed like if I stirred up the sand to much during a WC that it really agitated the whirling fish. Now I don't know if it was the WC itself or the stirring of the substrate, but just makes me curious.
    Matt,

    My tank was a BB 75gal tank used to QT. I was running an AC110 and 2 sponge filter. No substrates or decorations. I did add a group of rummy nose to the tank after I stopped experience the issue by going with smaller % WC. Our tap TDS is very similar.. Mine is about 100 as well. I run whole house filter, then carbon to water before going to the tank. I still add SAFE to be safe.

    Tap water is the same as my other tank and no issue there. Only in the wild.

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