I've lost a fish, now I'm trying to keep the rest safe

[Loosir]

Problem

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

I have brand new fish and I have already killed one and I think the rest are sick. I think I might have given them a parasite or bacteria from frozen salmon, but I’m not sure. Here’s the story
I fed my discus raw, frozen salmon once and only once last Sunday 8/3/14 and I have feed small bits if raw 93% ground beef for a few days, I haven’t found beefheart yet. They get Colbat discus flake 4 times a day.

Last week my 2.5” flachen snakeskin started looking beautiful, more so than the last two weeks. The fins became bright/iridescent blue, the body, eyes and bars stayed light. Then I noticed it was staying near the top of the tank breathing hard. Tuesday night I checked the water, 0,0,5-10 all good, but I decided to do a 75% water change. During the change it started darting around the tank and really began to darken. After the change it couldn’t stay upright and would spin on its side on the bottom of the tank. By morning it was gone. I’d say it took all of 18 hours for this fish to go.
Wednesday night my 2.5” pigeon snakeskin began hiding. Not breathing hard but it was definitely more colorful then last week. I pulled it out and performed a salt dip, 2tbs non-iodized salt per gal. It started freaking out, darting around during the dip after only 5min so I put it back in the tank. 40% WC
Thursday morning one of my 35 neons had died.
Thursday night my 2.5” blue diamond had black eyes and my 2.5” cobalt was dark. I did another 75% WC and salt dipped the two for a good 10min. They tilted a lot and one was horizontal for a second. I’m not certain what rolling over during a salt dip is supposed to be, not sure if it means they can’t get back up or if they fall to the side for an instant. Anyway I put them back in the tank.
This morning the pigeon snakeskin and cobalt look great but the blue diamond still has dark eyes and got really dark, almost black, but then a few minutes later turned light again and swam around just fine. Now my 2.5” dark angle is now is dark on top (it has not been for the past few weeks) hiding at the bottom back of the tank and has clamped fins.

I guess I'm trying determine for sure the cause and solution.

2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).
See above


3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.
WCs and salt dips. I also put a bag of activated charcoal in my sump.


Tank/Water

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.
Seven 2.5” Discus and Two 3” Discus
(35) 1" neons.
55 gallon display with a 20 gallon sump below.
The sump has three Poret dividers which are about 13"x13", a bunch of plants and a light shining on it for about 12 hours. No sign of algae. The flow from the display to the sump is about 80gal/hour which was calculated to be slow enough that the sump acts as a Hamberg Matten Filter.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).
25-30 gallons daily, so 50% of display or 40% of the system? I’ve done 75% the last few days and will keep that up for the time being.


6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?
Bare bottom, fully cycled, started in May. Décor is a manzanita branch
Got the fish on 7/29 about 3 weeks ago.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.
I do not age the water, tap water plus prime. The temp is 84 from the faucet


8. Parameters and water source; Tap water


Note: Water Parameters are important in diagnosing problems within a tank. If you don't own test kits for the following information, you can purchase them, test your parameters and post this info as soon as possible.

I’ve checked these every day for the last 3 weeks as I’m new at this and the fish are young. But the parameters are always the same.
- temp 84F

- ph 7.8

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 5-10

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water ____

- municipal water 100%

- RO water ____


9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.
Discus, A Manzanita branch Neons, hornwart, anacharis and java moss all in the last 8 weeks



10. Include any pictures or videos you have which shows the symptoms. If you can't add them to this post, please provide a link to them.

Thanks so much for any replies, Geoff

[Second Hand Pat]

Just a few other questions for clarity; is the tank BB or sand/gravel. Are there plants in the tank or just the sump. Is it safe to say with all the new additions no QT was done?

Also any pictures of the tank and fish.

[Loosir]

Hi Pat,
Thanks so much for taking a look. Yes there was no QT. The neons and plants were alone in the tank for 4 weeks, no losses or signs of distress. Then I added the Discus but nothing else.
Its bare bottom tank.
Here’s a thread with a video of the fish
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ans&highlight=
Here’s a thread with the setup.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ter&highlight=

[Second Hand Pat]

Can you please take a video of how the fish look now?

[Loosir]

Sorry, that would make a lot more sense, yes I will.
I started this thread at work, I'll make a video when I get home at the end of the day. Thanks again

[nc0gnet0]

Pacific Salmon or Great Lakes Salmon? I really don't think that is the issue, but this one is a bit of a head scratcher. Do you notice most of the symptoms after a water change? What is the ph of the water straight from your tap?

maybe they have picked something up from the neons?

[discuspaul]

Have you tested the pH of water out of the tap to that of the water in your tank to ensure there is no wide differential ?

While I also feel the salmon is probably not the issue, you mentioned you did feed bits of raw hamburger on successive days, and that sounds a bit suspect to me. Was it sitting out at room temp for any length of time on any of those days ?

[Loosir]

My PH is 7.8 and the tap is 7.7 its not settling much. The hamburger is frozen, I throw in tiny bits and they thaw almost instantly. I was using Carols post about frozen beefheart chipped up with a salad shooter as an example.
So the dark Angle looks great again, the Pigeon is hiding from me, probably still mad about the salt dip but I saw it swimming in the open earlier. The blue diamond still has dark eyes.
Here's a photo of what he looked like a week ago
[IMG][/IMG]
Here's a photo of him right now
[IMG][/IMG]

And here's a video of the tank

[Loosir]

So my Pigeon just spun around in a tight circle 20-30 or so times in 3 seconds. I'm giving him a salt dip as we speak, I'll keep him in for the 20 mins.

[Second Hand Pat]

Geoff, do me a flavor and contact Hans and see if he has any suggestions and read this http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...light=whirling.

[yim11]

Usually I dont post on disease threads unless I have concrete assistance to offer, but you are doing things right and have a very interesting situation. The whirling issue has never been fully understood or cured that I'm aware of. I wonder if you have 2 separate issues - whirling and a bacteria issue. I think bacteria based on the dark cloudy eyes. Salt dip would normally fix that but if the tank has the bacterial issue its just buying you time. By chance do you notice the eyes clear up for about 24 hrs after the dip?

Rick will also note that for the pb to spin is interesting.

[discuspaul]

I know that April Ross has had quite a few discus swirling experiences in past years, and had reasoned out some interesting and plausible causes and treatments.
Unfortunately, I don't think she'll see this post.

Wish I could remember what she told me about those experiences.

[Loosir]

I'll contact Hans and read the article.
The blue diamond is definitely improved since the dip yesterday, his body is normal and I can even see some red in his eye...a little. I'll give him another dip after the large WC.
The pigeon took the salt dip just fine, I wrapped a towel around the bowl so it wouldn't see anything and get startled. It's now looks great, swimming in the open calmly no heavy breathing, no spinning.
You guy are so great to share your time. Thanks I'll update when I can.

[Loosir]

That article is really interesting. What hits home is that the fish that are affected: hide, have dark eyes, whirl after WC and many times die when they hit the tank wall. I assume that's what happened to my Flachen Snakskin. He says this is internal toxicity caused by low conductivity and overfeeding. I have TDS of 250 which I thought was perfect. Unlike the article I don't use RO water or keep wilds, but everything else fits.

Does anyone think feeding less and fewer water changes would help as suggested by the comments?
Let me know if this makes sense.
Geoff

[nc0gnet0]

I think the dark eyes are a product of stress bar expression, as to why it's just happening in the eye area is interesting. I have tried to read through the article Pat linked, but it's just to painful to me, the translation needs much work. I don't think what you are seeing is a result of overfeeding coupled with low TDS as in the article, but what you are seeing is indeed a product of extreme stress. Exactly why the fish are so stressed I do not know.

Does the whirling always occur during or after a water change? I noticed that one had a bought during the salt dip?

Does anyone think feeding less and fewer water changes would help as suggested by the comments?
Let me know if this makes sense.
Geoff

Everything tells me this would be counter productive, however, what you might need to do is try to make the water changes as stress free as possible. Perhaps dim the lights and remove the water slower than normal, as well as fill/replace it at a much slower speed (under dimly lit conditions).

I have taken note of a few instances of what your describing in forum posts in the last couple of years, and the symptoms/manifestation are all very similar. That's not to say that the cause is all the same, but it seems to at least suggest that they might be. As to what that cause is, I wish I knew. The first thing that comes to mind is a water toxicity issue, aka some chemical getting into to the tank, maybe leaching out of the wood, a household chemical, something in your tap, etc etc.

Have you noticed any improvement since the addition of the carbon?

Keep us informed, and I wish I could be more help, maybe Paul might have something to add. I do know that if the symptoms were to continue (I hope they don't) it would be nice for one of these fish to get sent to the UFL for a biopsy.

-Rick