Adult wilds not exactly hiding, but inactive...would dither fish help.

[adapted]

I've had 8 adult Alenquers in a sand bottom 120 G tank for four months now and everything is fine with once exception: They all seem too stationary. They come forward when they think I'm about to feed them, but otherwsie they stay almost stock still all day, especialy when the LED light is on. (The room lights don't seem to bother them much.)

Anyway, I was wondering if anyone has had any success adding a shoal of cardinal tetras or the like in this situation. I have an opportunity to get 40 or so cheap this week, but I'm only interested if they woud actually make the main inhabitants a little more adventurous.

-- Pretty sure water quality is not the issue here... the tank is understocked and overfiltered, the environment is calm, and I change at least half the water every day with aged, soft water. Tank pH ranges from 5.8 to 6.3. Water changes have no noticeable effect...

[Dutch dude]

Hi there,

- I don't think the tank is understocked and for wilds the tank is full stocked.

- I do think your water changing regime is way out of line. Wilds prefer stable water quality and won't handle large water changes every day (I suggest to read the post about whirling). Best is to do 2 or 3 times a week a 30% to 40% water change.

- How about the LED lights,...high light intensity or shimmering light?

- What is the temperature?

- Do you add tap water or RO water or a mix? (what is the conductivity/TDS)

- How do you soften the water?

- What type of filtration?

It is very obvious your fish don't feel happy and I'm fairly sure tetras won't solve the issue and the reason for the behaviour is in the environment and routines.

[adapted]

Thanks for the reply. I should have mentioned the 40 gallon sump, which with the 120 G tank nominally allows for 20 gallons per fish which most would consider understocked.

The LED light (Current USA Satellite) is usually turned off... they don't like it so I usuallly just go with room lighting or natural sunlight through curtains... the tank is usually quite dark by any reasonable standard

TDS is about 45 - 60. Filtration is AQ110, Hydrosponge 5, Eheim 2217, plus a Purigen reactor in the sump and a couple more sponges. Temp is 82.5, never varies more than half a degree. The water is naturally soft, KH about 2 out of the faucet. The pH settles to around 6.5 in the aging barrel; the tank pH doesn't change appreciably after a water change-- usually around 6.0. I should have also mentioned that I change about a third of the water twice a day, mostly from siphoning, so there is no big change in parameters.

The main thing I agree with you about is that they are not happy. They eat like crazy and they're growing, but their demeanor says something is sub-optimal somewhere. I have some suspended driftwood over about half the tank and they spend almost all their time under it. (One of the more dominant fish ventures out by himself a good bit, but no others follow.)

[plecocicho]

I would also add that wilds appreciate cover, especially if there is a bright light. I alsonrecently removed my valisneria and they didnt appreciate it either. Now i am looking for some appropriate driftwood.

[Dutch dude]

The sump makes definitely a large difference. 20 gallon per fish is normal stock level for wilds dough. I wonder if the led light isn't too strong but it is hard to tell from the other side of the world (-;
In my opinion your TDS is to low. Nice for breeding but to low in the long run. I suggest a TDS around 150 if this is possible without adding chemicals. I also suggest to bring the temp up to 85C. I still suggest to read the whirling treat and look what experiences people have in regards large water changes on wilds.

[Second Hand Pat]

Adapted, can you post a video when they are eating. I would like to see their feeding response. When you approach the tank do they come forward eagerly? Are they showing bars? Also if you are not have issues with darting/whirling then large WCs are fine. I do 90% WCs on my young Tefe tank and 50/60% on my 240 on a regular basis. Are your LEDs dim-able?

[nc0gnet0]

Are they hiding/cowering, or are they just relatively inactive? Big difference there. Is it possible that with all your filtration you have a little too much current, and they just prefer to stay in an area the provides them some break from it?

Personally I think your water change regime is just fine. I have read the whirling thread, and I am a skeptic, while large water changes may have an effect on an infected fish, I do not believe it to be the cause of the problem, rather just something that MAY aggravate it.

-Rick

[Second Hand Pat]

Rick, you are correct. Large WCs only affect infected fish. I know this from experience.
Pat

[adapted]

Thanks, Pat and Rick. I will try to post a video soon, but in the meantime:

When I feed Cobalt flakes, they always rise to meet the falling food and go after the particles with deliberation. One dominant fish is always first, the others hang back. I would say that they are more cautious and tentative than most discus feeding videos I've seen but not dramatically so. (This is under room light only; with the LED on, they would be still more hesitant.)

I haven't fed red wigglers lately, but they use to all (except the dominant one, for some reason) tear into them, as aggressively as discus ever eat anything, with maybe the exception of live blackworms or live mosquito larvae.

Rick, I would say they hang back rather than hide or cower, and as I said there is one that is always eager. But they are definitely inactive for hours at a time.

When I enter the room, they come to the front fairly eagerly, though maybe less so in the last week or two. There really isn't much current judging from food particle flow, and what there is mostly comes from the AQ 110. I turn it off for feedings and it does not seem to have any effect if left off for an hour or two.


They eat Hikari frozen blackworms a little less eagerly now than before... I chalked that up to what seems like a preference for Cobalt flakes, because when I started with a primarily flake diet two weeks ago, they relative lack of interest in the FBW started.



I would say they have gotten more skittish in the last week or so, but never any whirling behavior..


Stress bars are rarely visible... the low man (sometimes two) in the pecking order shows them some, but not often. There's a lot of territorial squabbling, but nothing that serious, just posturing reallly.

The only other symptom I have noticed is three or four occasions oer the past three months when one fish at a time will clamp one gill for a few hours. This goes away on its on; seems to be stress related as it never visits the more dominant fish. I treated them to a round of Prazipro on two occasions... there is little or no flashing or scratching. Overall they seem to breathe easily, slower than I usually see in online videos.


Thanks for replies... I will work on the video -- been keeping the tank so dim it may be a challenge without subjecting them to a temporary lighting boost...

[Larry Bugg]

I wouldn't change the temp. I keep my wilds and domestics both at 82. Perfect temp. I also wouldn't worry so much about the large water changes. I normally do 40% to 50% on my wild tanks (220, 125, 125 and now the 110). Sometimes my wilds seem to just sit and chill while other times they can be quite active. I have kept wild with no issues at 10 gallons per adult but because I'm interested in getting them to breed I now am shooting for 1 per 20 gallons. Your stocking should be fine IMO.

[adapted]

Thanks or the reply Larry. I don't think the issue is water changes or temperature, either.

Something changed about ten days ago... they're skittish now and they never were before. I have to suspect a water quality issue despite everything I said earlier. I'm going to clean every filter, change most of their water out and not feed them for a day or two and see if anything changes...

[pcsb23]

You mentioned earlier that you changed their diet around two weeks ago ... I don't believe in coincidences

These are wild caught fish so bright overhead light will cause them to seek cover, one of their main predators comes from above (birds). They will adapt in time, but lower lighting levels are preferable imo as they are more natural. The behaviour of one dominant out in front is typical in wild discus too.

As for the water changes, as long as the new water has been de-gassed I really wouldn't worry over much, discus are quite capable of dealing with pH swings, they have evolved that way. I agree with Larry re the temps, they seem fine to me.

I'd be leery changing too much too soon as you won't know what the issue was and may form the wrong conclusions.

[adapted]

Thanks Paul... Right now I'm keeping the tank dark (just room light and not much of that) as there is absolutely no doubt that they prefer that.

There are a couple of variables in play in addition to a change from red wigglers/frozen Mysis/ frozen bloodworms. One is that the new canister filter is now about a month old and may need cleaning. (I keep a good pre-filter on it... it's an Eheim 2217) Also the sump may be causing a problem with a buildup of the stuff that grows inside tubing.

The diet issue may be that since it is so easy to feed the flakes, I may have been overdoing it. So I'm going to cut back on food for awhile... these are big thick fish and they don't need to be adding size anyway.

Anyway, something I'm missing has caused a behavior change, and I know just enough about these fish to know that it is most likely a water quality issue. I'm at a loss because I siphon thoroughly twice a day, change 50% a day, have a high quality 25W UV running in addition to a decent Purigen reactor, filter socks and multiple sponges in the sump. As I said, water changes do not effect their demeanor in any obvious way.


Anyway, I will be feeding less and cleaning all filter media while keeping the light down. I will report back if anything changes.

(Pat had asked for a video, but it is currently too dark to shoot anythjing that would be useful.)

[Second Hand Pat]

It's ok as you know there is something definitely up. I hope your filter cleaning has a positive effect. Perhaps I may suggest a few larger then 50% WC after the filter cleaning for a couple of days.

[adapted]

Thanks Pat. I had thought about a larger water change as well. I will definitely do as you suggest after cleaning the sump and filter media.