A suggestion to treat hole in the head

[Martin_HONGKONG]

Amoxicillin 10mg / liter

Recently, one of my wild discus had HITH, I treated it with praz but it did not stop the disease. A 100% change of aged and conditioned water to remove the praz. Amoxcillin was added to the tank and 3 days later the holes were sealed. (I was away during the treatment period, so I cannot tell you how fast the medication started to work.

I had lost a lot of discus with HITH in the past and this is the only time I used amoxcillin and it worked.

[John_Nicholson]

When not treating how much water do you change a day?

-john

[pcsb23]

Not sure why you thought praz (I'm assuming you mean prazinquantel) would fix hith ... also a 3 day turnaround sounds at best optimistic. Most cases of hith are husbandry related, as in the husbandry isn't good enough, be that general tank maintenance or dietary.

[DC Discus]

Paul - Wouldn't Metro have been the correct treatment? Has Amoxicillin be used previously for hith symptoms before, I thought it was for severe bacterial infections?

Cheers,
Dennis

[nc0gnet0]

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/produc...m?pcatid=12101

[nc0gnet0]

Paul - Wouldn't Metro have been the correct treatment? Has Amoxicillin be used previously for hith symptoms before, I thought it was for severe bacterial infections?

Cheers,
Dennis

IMO HITH is a catch all term applied to several different issues, all which present themselves visually in much the same way. While hexamita is often found at the infection sight, its debatable whether or not it is the root cause or just a secondary intruder. Myself I tend to believe the latter, and think more often than not, it is a bacterial infection brought on by poor water quality and/or a fish with weak immune system, resulting in an infection starting in the sensory pits and spreading outward.

[John_Nicholson]

Rick and Paul are both correct. The poor water condition deal was what I was pointing too when I asked about the water changes. Also just so everyone knows.....every aquarium has hex in it. It is normal. A healthy fish has no issues with it. When a fish is stressed is when it becomes a problem. Most people treat for the hex but they never address the reason that caused the real problem.

-john

[Martin_HONGKONG]

The purpose of my sharing is to offer one more solution to treat a rapidly prognosis disease with a fatal outcome that had affected a lot of discus and large tetras. I have no intention to go into what is the casual relationship or to demonstrate any associations with their confounders, such as water conditions, aging, poor health, lack of vitamins, folate, B12 complex, bacterial infections, worm infections, introduction of new biomass or even late onset of latent microbacterium infections such as Fish TB. To jump into the conclusion of HITH is casued by a single parameter such as water condition, it would have be over generalization. Discussion on HITH had be going on for over and over again, and it was well covered by many well known earlier members to name a few Wildthing David Webber, late Jims, Chad, Carol, Sly and Al so on. Unfortunate, almost all of them no longer share their knowledge.

This is the only time that I have successful treated HITH within 4 days. Other methods might share the same outcome but would the fish live long enough to go through the treatment process? The lesions of the bony tissue clearly demonstrated it is a fatal diease. I have treated HITH in discus with antibactotics and anti microbes in the past, non of these methods had worked for me. This is my personal case report. A single dose of 10mg per liter, after 4days it sealed up the open wounds. 75% water change before remedicated.

I use almond leaf to condition my water, pH 6.5. Stock density, 10 liter per inch of fish, 1 internal Ehem filter, 1 external Ehem filter , 1 powder head and 25% water change weekly. Lightly stock with floating plant common duckweed.

Regards,
Martin Li, PhD
_______

[nc0gnet0]

To jump into the conclusion of HITH is casued by a single parameter such as water condition, it would have be over generalization.

I do not understand this statement. Bad water conditions is far from a single parameter, as it will host a plethora of causative agents, both organic and inorganic. And it is nice that you had great success with amoxicillin, it however was one instance.

Personally I would prefer a different anti-biotic over the amoxy, perhaps a test case scenario using an antibiotic with an antibiotic potentiator.

[John_Nicholson]

First if you are going to name drop you probably should have mentioned me. I have been around longer than some of the ones you mentioned and have been asked advice by all but one of them. I also consider all of them except for Sly my friend. I have never had the chance to meet him, but I am sure he is a great guy. Jim was a very close friend of mine. Second you have not proven anything. You did several things and the fish got well. Which of those things helped? You do not have a clue. You are telling us about casual relationships but you were the one jumping to dramatic conclusions that are probably wrong. Not sure what your PhD is in but I sure hope it is not in any scientific field of study. Your methods and conclusions are laughable. If your fish are dying from HITH I would not tell anyone. That is just embarrassing.

-john

The purpose of my sharing is to offer one more solution to treat a rapidly prognosis disease with a fatal outcome that had affected a lot of discus and large tetras. I have no intention to go into what is the casual relationship or to demonstrate any associations with their confounders, such as water conditions, aging, poor health, lack of vitamins, folate, B12 complex, bacterial infections, worm infections, introduction of new biomass or even late onset of latent microbacterium infections such as Fish TB. To jump into the conclusion of HITH is casued by a single parameter such as water condition, it would have be over generalization. Discussion on HITH had be going on for over and over again, and it was well covered by many well known earlier members to name a few Wildthing David Webber, late Jims, Chad, Carol, Sly and Al so on. Unfortunate, almost all of them no longer share their knowledge.

This is the only time that I have successful treated HITH within 4 days. Other methods might share the same outcome but would the fish live long enough to go through the treatment process? The lesions of the bony tissue clearly demonstrated it is a fatal diease. I have treated HITH in discus with antibactotics and anti microbes in the past, non of these methods had worked for me. This is my personal case report. A single dose of 10mg per liter, after 4days it sealed up the open wounds. 75% water change before remedicated.

I use almond leaf to condition my water, pH 6.5. Stock density, 10 liter per inch of fish, 1 internal Ehem filter, 1 external Ehem filter , 1 powder head and 25% water change weekly. Lightly stock with floating plant common duckweed.

Regards,
Martin Li, PhD
_______

[Martin_HONGKONG]

John, I acknowledge you for your your continue contribution to discus keeping.

This is my single isolated success treatment and cannot be called scientifically proven and no way near it.

It is also true that I have no scientific proof that my discus had "HITH" as I did not get the condition diagnosis medically. I saw lesions appeared on the head of one discus among a group of 4 housed in a 250 liter tank and I said to myself it is "Hole in the Head". Quick isolate it, put it in a hospital tank and started my treatment scheme.

Judge from previous experiences, I put in Amoxicillin at 10mg / liter and the wound healed.

I got very excited and need to share it someone "Al" and Simplydiscus is the first thing come to my mind!

I also acknowledge the input of the others, without continue debating, sharing and re-debating, we will never get close to the "true".

As to answer John's question on my Phd, it is not related to fish, and I should have not mentioned it, sometimes I just got carry on when I sign my name.

Cheers from now,

Martin

[John_Nicholson]

Its all good Martin. Glad the fish got well.

The only trouble I have is that people jump to conclusions. Just like as soon as someone has a sick fish they turn there heat way up. That started because someone had a sick fish, they tuened uo the heat, and the fish got well. Now the heat may not have had anything to do with the fish getting well. In fact in lots of cases turning up the heat will make things much worse. You just have to becareful posting stuff because some people will take it as the truth even though it has not been proven out yet.

-john

[mikediscus]

Many many years ago when I first got into Discus keeping, I was faced with the same problem (HITH) and I lost quite a few Discus. I started to do my research on the cause of it and came across 2 great books: Textbook of Fish Health. T.F.H. Publications. Neptune City, NJ; 1987 and Stoskopf, MK. Fish Medicine. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1993 and later on I also read: Noga, EJ. Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment. Iowa State University Press; 2000.

A common contributing cause is the flagellate parasite Hexamita. This parasite primarily infects the intestinal tract, but then spreads to the gall bladder, abdominal cavity, spleen, and kidneys. As the disease progresses, the classical lesions of hole in the head disease appear. These lesions will open up and may discharge small white threads that contain parasitic larvae. Secondary bacterial or fungal infections may then develop in these openings and may lead to a more serious disease, and death.This is due to poor water quality, improper nutrition.....

John is right, I quote "every aquarium has hex in it" along with other beneficial minerals found in the water.The mineral imbalance may be caused by an increase in Hexamita organisms in the intestine, which may lead to malabsorption and a decrease in the absorption of the needed vitamins and minerals. Another myth is that by using activated carbon in our filtration system might cause (HITH). By using activated carbon, it may remove some of the beneficial minerals found in the water leading to an increased incidence in the disease. It is just a myth and not scientifically proven, Maybe John can touch up on this carbon issue.

The method that I used to treat Discus and Flowerhorn (HITH) is by adding antibiotic metronidazole to the treatment tank housing the infected fish. Water quality must be closely watched, and the water quality adjusted to the exact standards required for the fish. If it is serious then I would remove the fish and apply metronidazole directly to the affected area and released the fish back into the treatment tank. At this time I will not feed the fish for 3 to 5 days, 50% water change after the 5th day. I just want to make it clear that this way works pretty well for me going back to the Discus days and now the same with Flowerhorns. The most important thing is water, water and water condition (Got to be 100% clean).


Michael

[Rick S]

Many many years ago when I first got into Discus keeping, I was faced with the same problem (HITH) and I lost quite a few Discus. I started to do my research on the cause of it and came across 2 great books: Textbook of Fish Health. T.F.H. Publications. Neptune City, NJ; 1987 and Stoskopf, MK. Fish Medicine. W.B. Saunders Co. Philadelphia, PA; 1993 and later on I also read: Noga, EJ. Fish Disease Diagnosis and Treatment. Iowa State University Press; 2000.

A common contributing cause is the flagellate parasite Hexamita. This parasite primarily infects the intestinal tract, but then spreads to the gall bladder, abdominal cavity, spleen, and kidneys. As the disease progresses, the classical lesions of hole in the head disease appear. These lesions will open up and may discharge small white threads that contain parasitic larvae. Secondary bacterial or fungal infections may then develop in these openings and may lead to a more serious disease, and death.This is due to poor water quality, improper nutrition.....

John is right, I quote "every aquarium has hex in it" along with other beneficial minerals found in the water.The mineral imbalance may be caused by an increase in Hexamita organisms in the intestine, which may lead to malabsorption and a decrease in the absorption of the needed vitamins and minerals. Another myth is that by using activated carbon in our filtration system might cause (HITH). By using activated carbon, it may remove some of the beneficial minerals found in the water leading to an increased incidence in the disease. It is just a myth and not scientifically proven, Maybe John can touch up on this carbon issue.

The method that I used to treat Discus and Flowerhorn (HITH) is by adding antibiotic metronidazole to the treatment tank housing the infected fish. Water quality must be closely watched, and the water quality adjusted to the exact standards required for the fish. If it is serious then I would remove the fish and apply metronidazole directly to the affected area and released the fish back into the treatment tank. At this time I will not feed the fish for 3 to 5 days, 50% water change after the 5th day. I just want to make it clear that this way works pretty well for me going back to the Discus days and now the same with Flowerhorns. The most important thing is water, water and water condition (Got to be 100% clean).


Michael

Great input Mike, well written and very useful, I will keep this in mind if I ever have to deal with HITH.


Rick

[nc0gnet0]

A common contributing cause is the flagellate parasite Hexamita. This parasite primarily infects the intestinal tract, but then spreads to the gall bladder, abdominal cavity, spleen, and kidneys. As the disease progresses, the classical lesions of hole in the head disease appear. These lesions will open up and may discharge small white threads that contain parasitic larvae. Secondary bacterial or fungal infections may then develop in these openings and may lead to a more serious disease, and death.This is due to poor water quality, improper nutrition.....

It has always been my understanding that the mode of reproduction for the flagellate hexamita was binary fission. I am not aware of any larval form that you speak of. Are you aware of any conclusive publication or online article that shows my understanding is incorrect?

If the progression of the hexamita was so severe as stated in the above synopsis, it seems highly unlikely that any treatment would be successful.

-Rick