What are the ideal water parameters for raising young fish to adults and breeding?

[kris2341]

Hey guys, I have been wondering what the optimal water parameters are for discus growth and for breeding.

Now, it's common knowledge that eggs hatch best in water with low TDS, but is there REALLY no such thing as too soft for discus? I am talking in a literal sense, will the eggs be fine in even 0 TDS straight RODI? I am assuming the answer is no but it is good to have definite answers for this.

Since having low TDS water gives optimal hatching conditions and is also the natural habitat of discus, is it also the optimal setup for GROWING discus? Since it is their natural habitat, is be inclined to think so but I have heard otherwise, I recall hearing an argument that harder water is better for growth due to the abundance of needed minerals for growth helping them.

Would anyone be so kind as to confirm or deny the above concerns? Testimony from everyone as well as any practices done by successful breeders would be greatly appreciated!

Now my intent of this thread is to define the ideal bar as far as water quality is concerned, with as much detail as possible. So there is no need to reply with concerns of doing "too much", just what is the BEST, irregardless of potential limitations in practice.

Thanks!

[nc0gnet0]

Hey guys, I have been wondering what the optimal water parameters are for discus growth and for breeding.

Clean water lots of it

Now, it's common knowledge that eggs hatch best in water with low TDS, but is there REALLY no such thing as too soft for discus?

well, as far as the eggs are concerned, no, but the parents, yes, if we are talking long term. The thing for the perents that will cause the problems is ph instability in the short term, a lack of trace elements in the long term.

Since having low TDS water gives optimal hatching conditions and is also the natural habitat of discus, is it also the optimal setup for GROWING discus?

Now this particular part of your question is bound to spark some debate. First you have to consider a few other variables, the most important one being diet. But to make the answer simple, it's not necessary, and can sometimes be counterproductive. IME, I like to deep my levels at a minimum level (80 TDS on my water supply-others with different water may get different mileage). After you reach s certain threshold, adding more calcium (the primary culprit of hard water) has little to no effect on grow-out.

[kris2341]

Thanks for the response mud,

so from what you are saying, the eggs generally will hatch at any degree of low TDS water, but the long term concern is the lack of trace elements in said water may cause problems with development and health. This naturally would make pure RODI water a relatively poor choice, but it sounds better than using hard water.

Since people say keeping water at 15-30 TDS is generally good for the eggs, 30ppm TDS will probably be a good median for the eggs. Now as far as how well suited for the eggs that water is, is 30 TDS considered high, low, or a good median? How about the 80 TDS you record on your water supply? My Los Angeles tapwater registers at 250ppm TDS so that most certainly counts as an extreme and it would be impossible for eggs to develop in there.

Now on the topic of grow out, from what I understand, you consider slightly harder water good for raising discus but beyond a certain point, it becomes counterproductive and that growth is mainly affected by the quality and quantity of food provided correct? If so, there may be little reason to increase TDS beyond whichever number is good for discus breeding besides convenience.

I recall someone said to me in a PM that low pH soft water makes discus more comfortable and less strains of bacteria and viruses can thrive in these natural conditions so they rarely get sick, anyone willing to take a stab at this statement?

[nc0gnet0]

Now on the topic of grow out, from what I understand, you consider slightly harder water good for raising discus but beyond a certain point, it becomes counterproductive and that growth is mainly affected by the quality and quantity of food provided correct

You misread what I had said.

But to make the answer simple, it's not necessary (low tds water for grow outs), and can sometimes be counterproductive.

I went on to say this:

After you reach s certain threshold, adding more calcium (the primary culprit of hard water) has little to no effect on grow-out.

However, I did not say it was counter production, just rather it has little or no effect after a certain point.

[kris2341]

thanks for clarifying!

As far as TDS for grow out, would you consider your own TDS of 80 to provide optimal growth?

At the very least, it is nice to know that discus can grow comfortably in a wide range of water hardness conditions as shown by the stendker discus guides.

A bit of an off topic question but given that one has fry, when would it be considered safe to transition them to harder waters? when they go free swimming?

[nc0gnet0]

As far as TDS for grow out, would you consider your own TDS of 80 to provide optimal growth?

I would consider (in my water) any TDS above 80 optimal. However a TDS of 300 will not give me any better results than that of 80. However, 80 will give me much better results than say 15.......

A bit of an off topic question but given that one has fry, when would it be considered safe to transition them to harder waters? when they go free swimming?

typically I start upping the TDS (slowly) soon after they hatch.

[Larry Bugg]

I agree with Rick. My water out of the tap is around 40. It is great for breeding but I have found that it is not so great for growing out discus. I struggled with growing out juvies and didn't know what the problem was. I tried many solutions from water changes, foods, filtration ect., until I decided it was the lack of minerals in the water. I now supplement my grow out tanks with a mineral mix and am no longer having the issues I was. I had read in the past that a tds of 160 to 180 was optimal. Having no other real info to go on that is what I have aimed at. Rick's 80 may indeed be the optimal range, I can't say yes or no to that. I can only say that my personal non scientific research says that 40 was not good.

[kris2341]

Thanks for the input larry, at least your testimony gives me a clear idea of what is NOT optimal and that the water chemistry DOES matter in rearing discus, thanks!

[rg3lee]

What is tds

[kris2341]

TDS = Total Dissolved Solids

its a basic measure of water purity

[rickztahone]

What is tds

if you want the quoted version:
"Total dissolved solids (TDS) is a measure of the combined content of all inorganic and organic substances contained in a liquid in molecular, ionized or micro-granular (colloidal sol) suspended form"

[rg3lee]

How do you measure TDS