System Concept: Self-Cleaning Filtration Systems

[kris2341]

One of the most popular forms of self-cleaning filtration we employ is the Kaldnes moving bed filter which uses K1, K2 or K3 media in a circulating body of water. Without going into detail, this is a virtually maintenance free biological filtration system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pVDfmZIuEm0

Unfortunately there is also the issue of mechanical filtration in aquariums. In practically all cases, mechanical filtration is NOT self cleaning and we have to handle this regularly.

However, there is ONE example of self-cleaning mechanical filtration on the market for aquaria, the rotary drum filter.
http://www.koi-collection.com/webnew/index.php
http://www.koiacres.com/koi-acres-pr...um-filter.html

By our standards, this filtration system is MASSIVE, it is designed with koi ponds in mind, but with the use of 40 micron steel mesh on a drum that has an automatic cleaning system, this would grant pristine water to any aquarium big enough to use it as it provides filtration on par with pleated micron filter cartridges and is self cleaning through the use of high pressure water jets and a detritus collection pan with drain. Because it physically removes detritus from the water before it has a chance to foul, this filtration concept may be the holy grail of aquaria filters if a design could be made small enough for aquarium use.

If a person tried hard enough and had an aquarium in the realm of 300-400 gallons, the KC 15 model could be fitted to a sump with a hardlined water fill and waste pipe. But that is also a $2800 filter

As for making one for the 'normal person's' tank it would need to accomplish a few things

1. be small enough to install inside an aquarium stand, or BE the stand if it has to be so large
2. filter water as effectively as conventional means
3. be able to self clean the mechanical filter component
4. be able to self clean WITHOUT a waste line output
5. be able to otherwise expel waste products from the water without water jets due to the lack of a waste line output.

I feel like having some kind of scraper or brush that cuts through and slides the gunk off the drum can do what is required without the need of water jets, it would need a removable waste compartment however. If a scraper, it would need to be made out of plastic and be hard to cleanly cut through the gunk, but not hard enough to damage the steel mesh, if a brush, it would have to be some kind of foam for a consistent pull on the gunk, but would certainly get worn down quickly by the steel mesh.

[nc0gnet0]

You might be shocked at how large 40 microns actually is. The drum filter is better fitted to those with a central filtration system as opposed to a one tank system.

[kris2341]

yup, but it would be pretty interesting to find a way to implement it on a normal aquarium, a filter that can pull 70-80% of the detritus right out of the water column sounds pretty nice.

and yes, a 40 micron strainer still is pretty large compared to the capabilities of a 50 micron pleated cartridge mainly because of the many layers a cartridge has vs the single layer of a screen mesh but a drum does have its unique advantage...

The strength of this is the capacity to remove a large amount of aquarium detritus immediately before it fouls the water as opposed to have it sit in a filter pad as it decomposes for a day at least. If THAT can be done, that would be an amazing feat in itself even if some particulate gets forced through the mesh.
There still is water changes after all to get rid of the very very small stuff.

Besides, the koi drum uses a 40 micron screen due to the high flow rates that are required, in the aquarium setting, we may not need such high flow rates. it is very possible we could use an even finer mesh if this idea can work out.

but... just looking at it, one can see it is going to be HARD to pull off.

[Argentum]

Are there any small versions, lets say made for small ponds.

I am planning to start a fish room in about 3 months from now and I wanted to use one of these. I saw some models on youtube including UV sterilization.

Wont it be nice to have a fish room running on a self cleaning drum filter with UV and a sump with self cleaning media. Maintenance here will be minimal.

If I find one in the range of 750$ - 1000$ I will invest in one.

[nc0gnet0]

yup, but it would be pretty interesting to find a way to implement it on a normal aquarium, a filter that can pull 70-80% of the detritus right out of the water column sounds pretty nice.

and yes, a 40 micron strainer still is pretty large compared to the capabilities of a 50 micron pleated cartridge mainly because of the many layers a cartridge has vs the single layer of a screen mesh but a drum does have its unique advantage...

The strength of this is the capacity to remove a large amount of aquarium detritus immediately before it fouls the water as opposed to have it sit in a filter pad as it decomposes for a day at least. If THAT can be done, that would be an amazing feat in itself even if some particulate gets forced through the mesh.
There still is water changes after all to get rid of the very very small stuff.

Besides, the koi drum uses a 40 micron screen due to the high flow rates that are required, in the aquarium setting, we may not need such high flow rates. it is very possible we could use an even finer mesh if this idea can work out.

but... just looking at it, one can see it is going to be HARD to pull off.

I am an old koi guys myself, I just don't think that filter will scale down that well to significantly smaller sizes and still perform well. You will also have evaporation and humidity to contend with, not to mention the dietrius pan and the god awful odor it will give off. Once you figure you will be cleaning the pan every day, what makes it less labor intensive than a cartridge filter that filters to 5-10 microns and you change that everyday?

Now if your using it on a larger central system and filtering 2000 gallons of water, that changes the equation drastically.

For fractions of the cost you could have several filter socks in a sump, and accomplish the same thing and filter down to a smaller particle size as well. $2800 would buy a lot of filter socks (that can be reused btw).

[kris2341]

hahaha good points in the end, the key is an automated means to offer extremely rapid means of mechanical filtration, socks like you said can do nicely to filter and be changed daily, sadly the automation part is practically impossible for small aquariums without a drain... oh well, that just means with a drain, it will be flawless and that's the end of that.

as far as a drum filter for small ponds, the KC 10 is the cheapest and smallest premade filter they have, but costs a good deal at $2500 so it essentially is 2.5x the budget you are asking for Argentum.

http://www.deepwaterkoi.com/

Personally, if I went and decided that I REALLY wanted to keep a fishroom of discus, I would save up for the KC 15, a moving bed filter, and a TMC or aqua ultraviolet UV unit and build my fish room around those because there simply doesnt seem to be any better mechanical filtration out there.

It is essentially a computer controlled filter that autopurges itself regularly and without interruption. depending on how much water is used in a day, it could be a water change of a certain percentage!


As far as DIY is concerned, as long as someone can fabricate a similar drum and have it connected to a gearbox, it could easily be run on a timer and purge itself at even intervals.

[nc0gnet0]

hahaha good points in the end, the key is an automated means to offer extremely rapid means of mechanical filtration, socks like you said can do nicely to filter and be changed daily, sadly the automation part is practically impossible for small aquariums without a drain... oh well, that just means with a drain, it will be flawless and that's the end of that.

as far as a drum filter for small ponds, the KC 10 is the cheapest and smallest premade filter they have, but costs a good deal at $2500 so it essentially is 2.5x the budget you are asking for Argentum.

http://www.deepwaterkoi.com/

Personally, if I went and decided that I REALLY wanted to keep a fishroom of discus, I would save up for the KC 15, a moving bed filter, and a TMC or aqua ultraviolet UV unit and build my fish room around those because there simply doesnt seem to be any better mechanical filtration out there.

It is essentially a computer controlled filter that autopurges itself regularly and without interruption. depending on how much water is used in a day, it could be a water change of a certain percentage!


As far as DIY is concerned, as long as someone can fabricate a similar drum and have it connected to a gearbox, it could easily be run on a timer and purge itself at even intervals.

Alex Piworski had such a system on his tanks and too my knowledge he ended up getting rid of the drum filter.

[kris2341]

i wonder why? perhaps the self cleaning function never turned on because the system was kept so clean by default?

[musicmarn1]

im about to do one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzY7PZycmc4 and i also want to do this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrJ3eAE4qQE

there is a micro K1 media out now apparantly, i was talking to Joey aka the King of DIY on youtube just yesterday about filtration, he is SO knowledgeable about it, its crazy, wanted to do an interview with him on skype and post it here but i bought his book and im just about to do the blue barrel with a bunch of K1 in there but he warned me how noisy it is so now im putting it down in the crawl space and running a pipe up through the floor to the fish tank

He did tell me that of all types of filtration this was his favorite but so noisy its off putting to many. He did also tell me not to waste money on over filtration but to calculate my bio load he has the formula in the book i dont want to steal it and post it here, that might be a bad thing to do but he has a bunch of free videos ill see if i can find it there.

but now i know the exact level of filtration needed and no more than that will do any good whatsoever unless i add more fish or in months they grow bigger, so i added 20% extra to the calculation to allow for growth of the sub adults in the system.

[kris2341]

I have his book so i can probably look it up, the only thing i would want, is for the book to have frikken colored pictures! its a PDF so color wouldnt add cost or anything!

[musicmarn1]

when i spoke to him on the phone he was helping advise me how to do my own dog training ebook,since its so picture heavy i got stuck. He said having black and white made it much easier in the formatting of the book ! so i actually know the answer to that one LOL

[Argentum]

not to mention the dietrius pan and the god awful odor it will give off. Once you figure you will be cleaning the pan every day, what makes it less labor intensive than a cartridge filter that filters to 5-10 microns and you change that everyday?.

So the self cleaning drum filter is not self cleaning after all?
I recognize that the spray cleans the drum the detritus falls down and, what I thought is that it goes to the drain?

[kris2341]

no he is actually pointing out the flaw in my idea of a self- cleaning drum filter that DOES NOT use a drain.

All CURRENT iterations of it do use water jets and a drain so it is a true self-cleaning system. That being said, the drain and water jets are essential for the system in the end.

[nc0gnet0]

no he is actually pointing out the flaw in my idea of a self- cleaning drum filter that DOES NOT use a drain.

All CURRENT iterations of it do use water jets and a drain so it is a true self-cleaning system. That being said, the drain and water jets are essential for the system in the end.

Not to mention most of the time they are incorporated outside...

And the spray water used to clean the drum would also need to go into the drain as well, otherwise, what would get the dietrius to flow down the drain itself? It would be like trying to flush a turd down a toilet without any water........

This means you would also need some sort of auto top-off system to prevent significant water loss. Without a drain, your going to overflow your catch pan.

-Rick

[Argentum]

That's cool, but 2800$ is out of question. Maybe there could be some china made drum filters for a lower price. I will try to look it up.
If anyone found or tried one please say.