eating and acting normal but clear and stringy feces

[wencui]

The fish stopped eating this morning. Her partner is eating like a horse though. I will put her in a hospital tank and try heat today.

[YSS]

The fish stopped eating this morning. Her partner is eating like a horse though. I will put her in a hospital tank and try heat today.

The temp will need to be 96F or higher to make it effective. Good luck.

[wencui]

Thank you.

The temp will need to be 96F or higher to make it effective. Good luck.

[brewmaster15]

Wencui,
Do you understand that theres a potential issue with subjecting a fish to heat as a treatment? If this fishes problem is bacterial, It will potentially make its condition worse. Heat treatment is probably one of the most misused and miss understood things we subject our discus to. Its often recommended to treat a fish suffering from an internal parasite like hexamita... you've already tried metro flakes and metro in the water with no effect. If it was a protozoan like Hexamita I would think you would have seen an improvement.

I would lean towards persistent bacterial issues here.

I would advise against using heat.

I would also advise on stopping feeding the BH mix until the fishes health returns... feeding that when a fishes digestive system isnt well often makes a bacterial issue worse.

hth,
al

[YSS]

Its often recommended to treat a fish suffering from an internal parasite like hexamita...

This is true.

you've already tried metro flakes and metro in the water with no effect. If it was a protozoan like Hexamita I would think you would have seen an improvement.

I have had very little success treating hex with metro. I'm not saying metro is not effective, but I've had very little success. When metro failed, I tried heat, and it worked wonders.

[nc0gnet0]

This is true.



I have had very little success treating hex with metro. I'm not saying metro is not effective, but I've had very little success. When metro failed, I tried heat, and it worked wonders.

Was the hex identified with a microscope?

[brewmaster15]

This is true.



I have had very little success treating hex with metro. I'm not saying metro is not effective, but I've had very little success. When metro failed, I tried heat, and it worked wonders.

Not doubting yourpersonal results Yun, but most that use heat and report success for treating these conditions usually don't have a positive ID on the ailment.. just that they stopped eating and had off colored feces. Theres alot that could cause this...which is why I caution against using Heat with out knowing what you are dealing with. Its risky imo. In your case you may have been dealing with something very different than the next hobbyists.

hth,
al

[wencui]

I understand the heat will actually facilitate bacteria infection. I have observed this fish for about a month and haven't seen any bacteria related symptoms, such as bloating, slime and clamped fins. That is why I use the heat.
The problem of the metro in flake is that metro is highly soluble in water. If fish doesn't eat the medicated flake in 10 seconds, it won't work effectively. The discus usually doesn't eat dry flake in 10 seconds. The metro bath, I will say, has a half chance for success.
I have tried all options. These two fish in the same tank received the same treatments. One fish is eating veraciously while the other is getting less interest in food and eating less.
The heat is the last resort I will try.
The sick fish in a 10 gallon tank with a active sponge actually ate a little bit FDBW this morning. The temp is between 96-97. It has stopped excreting the white jelly-like feces. I only saw a stringy black one at the bottom of the tank. I hope it will get better.

[nc0gnet0]

Not doubting yourpersonal results Yun, but most that use heat and report success for treating these conditions usually don't have a positive ID on the ailment.. just that they stopped eating and had off colored feces. Theres alot that could cause this...which is why I caution against using Heat with out knowing what you are dealing with. Its risky imo. In your case you may have been dealing with something very different than the next hobbyists.

hth,
al

My thoughts exactly. 99.5% of all the users on this forum that post to the disease section do not have a positive ID of the problem at hand (microscope). If the treatment happens to work for 1 out of 10 of the cases, what about the other 9? Will these fish survive to move on to another treatment or will they perish?

[YSS]

My thoughts exactly. 99.5% of all the users on this forum that post to the disease section do not have a positive ID of the problem at hand (microscope). If the treatment happens to work for 1 out of 10 of the cases, what about the other 9? Will these fish survive to move on to another treatment or will they perish?

This is the case for every case and every treatment option popular or unpopular.

[brewmaster15]

Yun, Just so I am clear here, do you think that this fish has an internal Protozoan infection? I know you said heat worked for you when your fish would not eat and metro didn't work... but what do you think is going on in this fish? For a treatment to work, it has to work by some means on something... aside from not eating and the feces characteristics, what do you think the problem is here?

al

[YSS]

I did not advocate heat treatment for this fish. As you can see earlier on this thread, I recommended holding off on the heat treatment, but OP decided that was his next option. I do not know what may be wrong with the fish, but if it's hex, then heat treatment is worth considering. I treated many fish I suspected had hex issue successfully with heat.

[nc0gnet0]

This is the case for every case and every treatment option popular or unpopular.

You have a point, however some carry significantly more risk than others. I hope you are not taking any of this personally, but I never said heat treatment would not work, but rather I am not a big fan. Here is the reason why.

OP (either this one or the next) has a case of clear white feces, fish not eating, etc etc. This can be caused by any one of several factors, or a combination of them. Such factors include:

1) hex
2) cryptobia
3) Capillaria
4) Internal bacterial infection
5) non eating due to stress for a significant duration (even some breeders stop eating when with fry for a time)
6) bad water quality, etc etc

Now, if we have a confirmed case of Hex, and or first choice of medication has not worked (this has never happened to me btw), I can see the heat treatment as a viable option.

However, as most cases in this forum are typically not confirmed, what scares me is that in such a case (unconfirmed hex), if the OP does not see an immediate improvement to the fish and feces after a 10 day course of metro, He/she next step might be to try heat, when in fact it might be better to consider some of the other factors that might be the culprit.

I would also like to note that it is not unheard of for the treatment to have been successful, but it take time for the fish to get back on its feed and normal feces to return. This often is the case, yet the OP expects immediate and noticeable results during medication. It just doesn't always happen this way. Give the fish time.......

There is a big difference between bumping up the temperature a few degrees and speeding up the life cycle of the parasite, or encouraging the fish to eat, and raising the temperature up to 97 degrees in an attempt to kill the parasite. The fish has to be fairly healthy to withstand the treatment (most we see here are not) and not also infected with any secondary infections (many are).

I am sure you are aware of this, however, many reading this might not be.

In other words-Use with caution.


-Rick

[wencui]

I totally agree with Rick on use with caution on heat treatment.

However, the positive ID with microscope is usually beyond the average aquarist. Even if you have microscope, the accurate ID is also difficult for non-expert.
I don't use the heat treatment on an impulse. I don't recommend anyone else to jump in heat treatment either.
I have my reasons for starting the heat treatment:

1. The fish's appetite was observed obviously decrease after I stopped feeding metro flake about 10 days later. The white/clear feces was excreted only once a day and very little during the treatment of metro flake. After that, the white/clear feces was observed more in both quantity and frequency. Due to the fact that metro is highly soluble in water and discus fish doesn't eat dry flake in 10 seconds, the effectiveness of metro flake is very limited. Although the issue had not been addressed by using the metro flake, I can see a difference from not feeding the metro flake.

2. The round worm is less likely to be the issue. I started to feed fenbendazole flake for 10 days right after treating with the metro flake. The fenbendazole is only slightly soluble in water. Therefore, the effectiveness of medication should be very high even though the fish hasn't consumed the flake in 10 seconds. In order to make sure that the fish could take the enough amount of medication, I fed twice each day( only once/day recommended) until they had full belly, and cleaned up the leftover after 15 minutes. During this time, there was no obvious change observed. After the completion of fenbendazole flake, the fish actually lost some appetite and excreted longer white/clear stringy feces.

3. The issue is less likely to be the internal bacterial infection. After treating with the fenbendazole flake, I suspected the internal bacterial infection. I did lower the temp to 82 for a few days. However, there were not any other symptoms related to the internal bacterial infection, such as clamped fin, excess slime and bloating abdomen. Therefore, I tuned the temp back to 84 and started the metro bath. I think the fish was showing the typical early stage symptom of flagellates infection: still eating, deceased appetite and white/clear feces.

4. The metro bath is less effective for internal issues. Although it is well documented that the metro bath is recommended for internal flagellates, it is not favored by some experts. I have kept discus for only two years but have angelfish for a long time. I learned and consulted a lot from Angelsplus and Steve. In my opinion, he is a very renowned tropical fish breeder. When I have the issues of refusing food and passing a white feces on my angelfish, he suggested that the medication bath is less effective for internal parasite issues. Instead, raising the temp coupled with feeding the medicated food is the best option, I had several successful experience to bring my angelfish back by using his high temp treatment. If you go to his website, you will see that he has very specific information on how to treat different internal parasites on angelfish and he also articulately states that the treatment for internal bacterial/virus and internal parasites is very different on the temperature use. I know angelfish and discus are different, but we can see some commons in there.

5. The water quality cannot be the issue. I am not new to keep fish and discus. I changed twice 60%-70% each day during the first ten days and have been testing water every day with API .

[brewmaster15]

I totally agree with Rick on use with caution on heat treatment.

However, the positive ID with microscope is usually beyond the average aquarist. Even if you have microscope, the accurate ID is also difficult for non-expert.
I don't use the heat treatment on an impulse. I don't recommend anyone else to jump in heat treatment either.
I have my reasons for starting the heat treatment:

1. The fish's appetite was observed obviously decrease after I stopped feeding metro flake about 10 days later. The white/clear feces was excreted only once a day and very little during the treatment of metro flake. After that, the white/clear feces was observed more in both quantity and frequency. Due to the fact that metro is highly soluble in water and discus fish doesn't eat dry flake in 10 seconds, the effectiveness of metro flake is very limited. Although the issue had not been addressed by using the metro flake, I can see a difference from not feeding the metro flake.

2. The round worm is less likely to be the issue. I started to feed fenbendazole flake for 10 days right after treating with the metro flake. The fenbendazole is only slightly soluble in water. Therefore, the effectiveness of medication should be very high even though the fish hasn't consumed the flake in 10 seconds. In order to make sure that the fish could take the enough amount of medication, I fed twice each day( only once/day recommended) until they had full belly, and cleaned up the leftover after 15 minutes. During this time, there was no obvious change observed. After the completion of fenbendazole flake, the fish actually lost some appetite and excreted longer white/clear stringy feces.

3. The issue is less likely to be the internal bacterial infection. After treating with the fenbendazole flake, I suspected the internal bacterial infection. I did lower the temp to 82 for a few days. However, there were not any other symptoms related to the internal bacterial infection, such as clamped fin, excess slime and bloating abdomen. Therefore, I tuned the temp back to 84 and started the metro bath. I think the fish was showing the typical early stage symptom of flagellates infection: still eating, deceased appetite and white/clear feces.

4. The metro bath is less effective for internal issues. Although it is well documented that the metro bath is recommended for internal flagellates, it is not favored by some experts. I have kept discus for only two years but have angelfish for a long time. I learned and consulted a lot from Angelsplus and Steve. In my opinion, he is a very renowned tropical fish breeder. When I have the issues of refusing food and passing a white feces on my angelfish, he suggested that the medication bath is less effective for internal parasite issues. Instead, raising the temp coupled with feeding the medicated food is the best option, I had several successful experience to bring my angelfish back by using his high temp treatment. If you go to his website, you will see that he has very specific information on how to treat different internal parasites on angelfish and he also articulately states that the treatment for internal bacterial/virus and internal parasites is very different on the temperature use. I know angelfish and discus are different, but we can see some commons in there.

5. The water quality cannot be the issue. I am not new to keep fish and discus. I changed twice 60%-70% each day during the first ten days and have been testing water every day with API .

Best wishes Wencui...I hope your Discus recovers quickly. I would have recommended a different treatment than you are choosing, but I can respect your decision as they are your fish.

al