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Thread: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

  1. #16
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    I know I am jumping around here, but I need to mention also thats theres 2 kinds of inverters . The inexpensive ones like the one I am using here are just your standard inverter that makes a modified Sine wave,.. These are suitable for fish tank gear but sometimes will not work with some fluorescent lights... Not sure if they work with LEDs.. I know they work fine with heaters, aquaclear filters, air pumps and most older pcs and laptops.. I used that alot for mine. Where they are not so good is sensitive electronics. For that should get a "pure"sine wave inverter.. They are pricey.. 2-4 X what a modified sine wave costs. I have the OSP Tiger Claw 1500w/3000w Pure Sine Wave Inverter which goes for $200.. and is a low end one... It puts out 1500 watts/3000 countinous... and its really a great Pure Sine inverter fior the price.

    I'm not going to attempt to explain modified verse pure sine waves except picture this... Modified looks like blocky steps, pure sine waves are smooth rolling hills.

    see an image here...
    http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/p...wave-inverters
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 12-03-2014 at 09:18 PM.
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  2. #17
    Homesteader MKD's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Tony,
    From what I know, alot of inverters have a shut off built in that if the battery voltage drops to a certain level... ,usually 10-11 volts I think, it shuts off. You can get that by drawing too much from the battery, or the cables could have been too small or long and that caused the voltage drop that tripped the shut off. My guess is it was the first.. was the car shut off or running when you tried?

    -al
    It was brand new car and was off. that could be it.
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 12-03-2014 at 06:16 PM.
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  3. #18
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Okay so we have the battery, the inverter, the wires and terminals, the fuse... not much else to it except some way to charge the battery.


    Now if you want to be truly self sufficient here, a solar panels not a bad idea... 30 watt panels are fairly cheap and hook up easy. If you have alot of sun where you are...it will work great..



    Here in CT, Northeast USA in the winter, its use able but takes a while. I prefer to think ahead abit when I am prepping for something.

    So heres my scenario,... Storm hits and its serious, much power out, and many days without power. Similar to what the Northeast went thru with Hurricane Sandy and the South with Katrina. Why settle on one method to deal with this when several work? Thats the beauty of this invert power supply. You can easily have a solar panel, ready to go if you have a hurricane that comes thru and blows out the power for a few weeks... If you have a changer thats maintaining the battery and you loose power that battery will still have juice for weeks until you use it. And then if you are one of those of that have a generator, even better. Remember those lines at the pump, and the the problem getting gas that many of us went thru? Wouldnt it be nice to get a little more mileage out of your generators fuel tank? Most people don't run their generators to peak output, but alot of that potential is lost as the fuel burns up. Hook a battery charger up to it, then to the battery and charge the battery while running the house on generator. Then you can give the generator a break and run the lights etc off the battery at night, in effect you get more electricity . Alot of hobbyists I know of really lost alot of fish in the last few storms. I was able to run my fishroom for close to a week on an inverter set up more simple than this.

    Its silent, reusable, can be run inside. (note on that shortly, I need to talk battery types.) For a hobbyist with a tank or two of fish... its a really easy and inexpensive way to insure that you are able to have power when you need it for your tanks. Just a few hours without power will kill a biofilter in a cannister.
    The above system costs under $200 . Added benefit, most people can't take their generator with them if they have to leave or need power somewhere.. an inverter is easy peasy to!
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 12-04-2014 at 07:21 AM.
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  4. #19
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Quote Originally Posted by MKD View Post
    It was brand new car and was off. that could be it.
    I would almost bet on it.

    -al
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  5. #20
    Homesteader MKD's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Great information and useful to someone like me. Don't want to wake up neighbors with generator. Thank you Al
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  6. #21
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Some vids... using some power tools.. My standard test equipment.. ... in this case will go with a drill and 9 amp circular saw.... Not sure why the video quality is so crummy with this upload... photobucket must have clipped it...


    Drill



    circular saw


    saw pushes it a bit! but runs.

    al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 12-03-2014 at 07:09 PM.
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  7. #22
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    I know I am jumping around here, but I need to mention also thats theres 2 kinds of inverters . The inexpensive ones like the one I using here are just your standard inverter that makes a modified Sine wave,.. These are suitable for fish tank gear but sometimes will not work with some fluorescent lights... Not sure if they work with LEDs.. I know they work fine with heaters, aquaclear filters, air pumps and most older pcs and laptops.. I used that alot for mine. Where they are not so good is sensitive electronics. For that should get a "pure"sine wave inverter.. They are pricey.. 2-4 X what a modified sine wave costs. I have the OSP Tiger Claw 1500w/3000w Pure Sine Wave Inverter which goes for $200.. and is a low end one... It puts out 1500 watts/3000 countinous... and its really a great Pure Sine inverter fior the price.

    I'm not going to attempt to explain modified verse pure sine waves except picture this... Modified looks like blocky steps, pure sine waves are smooth rolling hills.

    see an image here...
    http://www.civicsolar.com/resource/p...wave-inverters
    Modified sine wave converters are ok for incandescent lighting, brush-less motors, heating elements, etc etc.

    As mentioned not recommended for motors with brushes (transfer pumps etc), fluorescent lights.

    LED's-They should be ok, LED's are a DC current device (as are most electronic devices.) The part that may be at risk is not the LED fixture, but the walwart/power brick that has a step down transformer inside (and then the ac is converted to DC).

    Same would go for Laptops and most electronic devices (as all have there own ac to dc power supplys-not all are external like most typical LED fixtures however). Here it would be a case by case scenario depending on the quality of the power supply of the device itself.

    One interesting little note-When using a modified sine wave converter, some devices-such as heaters-willl draw a little more power than they would with a pure sine wave-so leave yourself a little headroom. They will work just fine though, just your 300 watt heater might draw 350 watts all of a sudden.
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 12-03-2014 at 07:12 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Modified sine wave converters are ok for incandescent lighting, brush-less motors, heating elements, etc etc.

    As mentioned not recommended for motors with brushes (transfer pumps etc), fluorescent lights.

    LED's-They should be ok, LED's are a DC current device (as are most electronic devices.) The part that may be at risk is not the LED fixture, but the walwart/power brick that has a step down transformer inside (and then the ac is converted to DC).

    Same would go for Laptops and most electronic devices (as all have there own ac to dc power supplys-not all are external like most typical LED fixtures however). Here it would be a case by case scenario depending on the quality of the power supply of the device itself.

    One interesting little note-When using a modified sine wave converter, some devices-such as heaters-willl draw a little more power than they would with a pure sine wave-so leave yourself a little headroom. They will work just fine though, just your 300 watt heater might draw 350 watts all of a sudden.
    Thanks for the add on info Rick!
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  9. #24
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    So more area I should touch upon... The battery.

    In my son'sTreehouse I am using an AGM sealed battery. This means "Absorbed Glass Matt" . AGM batteries are a better choice for inside homes use .They are sealed and maintenance free batteries...Last thing I wanted was a chance my kids would get acid sloshed on them... These batteries are often used in solar installations. They cost about 2 X what a typical flooded lead acid battery that is serviceable costs. Well worth it if you can swing it. I chose to use a the inexpensive flooded lead acid deep cycle marine batteries from walmart as cash was tight and they do what I need. Plus they are in my garage.

    A good article on the different battery types is here...

    http://bdchargers.com/batterytypes.php


    -al
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  10. #25
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    A word about Chargers... Low end ones are a mixed bag.. even from well known names. Be sure to read the model reviews... I found some that were pure garbage. I use a low end Schumacher....



    First one came in DOA from Amazon, second was fine and has worked great.. Its what I read alot of.....pure hit or miss.. I settled on thi model for several reasons, one of which was the price point was low and the reviews fair, under $50 and I had intended on building it into a charging station down the road so it would not be something I could use elsewhere... no sense in wasting money. Its important that you use a "smart" charger. These can be set to battery type and AGM, Flooded, sometime even Gel ( another battery type) . They don't just charge the battery, but run a cycle that charges them in a way that maximizes their life. One thing you don't want to do is over charge the battery ..it will destroy, so smart chargers shut off automatically. You also want to have a charger that will desulfate the lead plates properly..... again not an electrician so will simplify this... Basically Junk builds up on the lead plates.... when you charge the battery properly the junk is removed. When you use the battery Junk build up. A battery with lots of junk is not going to work well. At least thats this biologists understanding of a chemistry process.

    sulfation link...
    http://bdchargers.com/sulfation.php
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 12-03-2014 at 08:00 PM.
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  11. #26
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    As I said, I am sure this will be a work in progress....lol..sorry if I jump around..

    Back to the Batteries... Most inverters will shut off if the battery volts drop too much but you do want to be careful that you don't drain the battery too much... Even taking a deep cycle battery and draining it to zero will kill its longevity immensely... most are meant to only be drained to a certain point. Thats going to very by battery, so read the specs... But theres an easy fix.. I know many of you know what batteries in Series vs in parallel are, so not trying to dummy down this, but for those that don't.... You can take 2 batteries and wire them so the voltage stays the same...but the amp hours double.. ..thats in Parallel .. ( you could also keep the amp hours the same and wire in series which makes a 12 volt system now 24 volts....not what we want here.

    Theres alot of benefit to batteries in parallel.. they last twice as long and they don't get drawn down dangerously low. They need to be the same brand, same ratings, and same age though. You don't want to wire a a 100 ah hour battery with a 20 amp hour battery... nor do you want to use a 2 each 100 aH batteries where one is 1 year ld and used and the other new.


    Parallel and Series wiring is a basic in electronics, theres tons of info and diagrams on it. So I won't go into anymore detail...
    Parallel vs Series info...
    http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/a...configurations

    Series by way is great for science projects with kids... You can easily make homemade batteries that can run led lights... we've got a set now running for 1 week that will probably run months and months.. all thanks to a bunch of tiny charges adding up.. lol..digressing.... I planned on writing that up for a DIY site.
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 12-03-2014 at 08:04 PM.
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Al to help explain the wires alittle bit ( you may already know this). Up to 0 gauge wire is for automotive. Any of the 1/0 - 4/0 is industrial stuff. In the automotive business and car audio we have our own wire sizes don't know why but I think it's like difference between metric and standard and it goes up to 0 since that will handle all a car will throw at it. Even still most cars don't go above 4

  13. #28
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Quote Originally Posted by sdrexler078 View Post
    Al to help explain the wires alittle bit ( you may already know this). Up to 0 gauge wire is for automotive. Any of the 1/0 - 4/0 is industrial stuff. In the automotive business and car audio we have our own wire sizes don't know why but I think it's like difference between metric and standard and it goes up to 0 since that will handle all a car will throw at it. Even still most cars don't go above 4
    Hi Sam,
    Thanks for that info... It definetly helps . When I first started playing around with this, I went to my local automotive store and when asked about 2/0 wire they looked at me like I had 2 heads.... same when I asked about a 250 amp ANL inline fuse! Best I could get at the auto store was a piece of black 1/0 wire and a roll of red tape!


    I had the hardest time understanding why the wire had to be so big an inverter.. Theres alot of good info here...
    http://www.donrowe.com/power-inverter-faq-a/258.htm


    but best I can tell is its related to the watts, length of wire used , and the way this is a 12 v DC system. I ended up by alot my wire from WindyNation.
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  14. #29
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    Now, with a good 20 amp DPDT relay we can get this puppy to turn on when power goes out automatically........

    Nice write up Al!

    -Rick
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  15. #30
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    Default Re: An Alternative to a Generator..The inverter

    I like to pride myself on being creative where possible and if I can find something as discarded or old and I can re-use it I will... If you find this write up interesting and are toying with the idea of trying it, keep an eye out on Craigslist and the classifieds. They go fast when offered and sometimes are dirt cheap but you may stumble on batteries from telephone companies, or Computer IT stations, some of these may be old, but are definetly worth getting if the price is right. Same goes for golf cart batteries, and even tow motor batteries. I would love to get my hands on some of these big monsters!

    Theres no way to really save on the cables. You want to use a multi-strand copper cable. Its carries current better than a single strand of copper .I'ev been told its because the current flows over the surface of the copper, so the more surface area the better. Its also flexible and easier to work with. For smaller inverters, some have used battery Jumper cables.If you do, keep the cable as short as possible , just a few feet, and crimp/solder terminals and pay attention to the gauge of the wire.

    Inverters... You got to love Ebay for bringing together all the good and the bad in one place! You can really find some deals there. Before you look though, try and add up all the watts you need to supply for your application. Be realistic... what do you need to get by? and then shop. Amazon is great for reading the reviews on a model of interest.... Ebay is usually cheaper and has more suppliers. Go with what want there. Theres also a ton of online battery,inverter, and solar specialist and even forums for them...All good resources to tap.

    Theres a bit to learn, but its not too hard to get a solid foundation and learn as you go.Its a bit fun as well if you like DIY projects.

    Hope this helps someone,

    Al
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