Beginner needing some expert advice

[nevertooold]

Thanks once again! Will try to get the tank going and then see if ph will stabilize. I work full time and there never seems to be enough hours in the day to get things done. My concern was with the ceramic media in the 2217. As this was a used canister I was concerned about the possibility of transferring something bad into my tank. The previous owner stated he had no health issues with his fish, but they were all gone so you never really know for sure. He had a community tank, not Discus.

[DISCUS STU]

All seems to be in order and good advice given. "Don't overstock", "Do regular water changes", etc.

My question. What kind of substrate are you planning on keeping and what's a substrate heater? New to me.

[nevertooold]

Not sure about substrate as yet. Sand has been recommended, but I am leaning towards pea sized river rock, just a very thin layer that will be easy to clean with my Aqueon water changer. I'd probably end up sucking all the sand up if I used sand. As far as the substrate heater goes, I found it on Amazon. It is an electrical heating cable that goes under the substrate. It is suppose to create a bit of a rising current which helps to aerate the substrate thereby helping to prevent anaerobic bacteria from growing. Who knows if it actually works, but it sounded good, lol. I just can't imagine myself keeping fish in a sterile looking empty tank, it would seem a very poor quality of life for the fish even if they lived longer and grew bigger. Yes I'm one of those people that try to make the life of all creatures in my care the very best it can be. I have 7 rescue parrots that others walked away from when they started biting and yelling and behaving like adult parrots. They don't stay cute babies forever! My husband and I farmed in Alberta for many years, raising pure bred beef cattle and dairy goats. I've cared for just about everything over the years and now that I'm getting older thought I'd give Discus a try. At least they probably won't bite me when I feed them. I guess my biggest fear is that I will purchase a group of Discus and make some stupid mistake and end up killing them all. That would be a very bad feeling!!

[discuspaul]

Just a further small note of caution: Even a small layer of pea-sized river rock will still allow & harbor some wastes from fish, or food, or decomposing plant matter, etc., which even good vacuuming will not entirely remove, and which can produce undesirable bacteria development.
Quartz-based silica pool filter sand on the other hand, will fully hold all wastes on it's surface for easy, complete clean-up, and will NOT get siphoned up by vacuuming if the sand is no finer than # 20 or #30 grade. I've used it for years and can attest to this.

[nevertooold]

Thanks Paul, that sounds good. How do you use the vacuum? Do you actually stick it into the sand, or just sort of pass it over the surface? I had read one article on line that said they put a nylon stocking over the siphon, another said they kind of agitated the surface, but that it clouded the water for awhile, sounded awful, that's why I was thinking of a thin layer of river rock. It sounded from reading that the vacuum would work better in that. If there is a way to clean the sand, with the siphon, that sounds like the way I will go. Where would I find that kind of sand? Of all the different animals I have kept in my lifetime, who would have thought a little fish would be the most challenging. Ah well, I'll get there!

[a.person61]

I'm no expert in discus but highly recommend a U.V filter to help avoid Algy. My one cost around 300 bucks no Algy so far!

[DISCUS STU]

If you can't abide the thought of a bare bottom (bb) tank then I'd go with sand. Fine silica is often used but I use good 'ol Hudson River sand. River or lake sand is also good. Most gunk stays on the surface. I use a regular Python siphon. I lose very little sand in the process, this is for my planted tank.

My others tanks are bb tanks. The fish do best with this. I have to adjust my expectations to accommodate the Discus as they are not capable of adjusting to mine. Gravel, pebbles, etc. will trap waste and debris and bacteria (the enemy). This under substrate heater doesn't sound necessary and isn't something that I think most of us are familiar with. Better to keep it simple, especially in the beginning.

[discuspaul]

Thanks Paul, that sounds good. How do you use the vacuum? Do you actually stick it into the sand, or just sort of pass it over the surface? I had read one article on line that said they put a nylon stocking over the siphon, another said they kind of agitated the surface, but that it clouded the water for awhile, sounded awful, that's why I was thinking of a thin layer of river rock. It sounded from reading that the vacuum would work better in that. If there is a way to clean the sand, with the siphon, that sounds like the way I will go. Where would I find that kind of sand? Of all the different animals I have kept in my lifetime, who would have thought a little fish would be the most challenging. Ah well, I'll get there!

Just slowly move any store-bought vacuum tool (with a wide spout) about 1" above the sand surface. Some sand will get picked up, but will move up into the vacuum tube no more than an inch or two, and then fall right back down.
Get your pool filter sand only from a pool or spa supply store, which will very likely carry only quality product of uniform grain size/grade.

[aalbina]

...My concern was with the ceramic media in the 2217. As this was a used canister I was concerned about the possibility of transferring something bad into my tank. The previous owner stated he had no health issues with his fish, but they were all gone so you never really know for sure. He had a community tank, not Discus.

OK - I didn't see anyone jump on this so here goes... A used filter is just fine to use, you definitely need to clean it very well with bleach and let it dry. If it were me - I would throw away the used media and start with new media. Either way - I would thoroughly clean the filter with bleach. Just because the previous owner didn't have any illness doesn't mean you won't. Think of the Inca's dyeing off due to diseases brought by the Spanish for which their immune systems were ill equipped. I wouldn't take any chances - there is some research here and in other places that suggests that some nasties eggs can survive drying out and can hatch out when exposed to water and a host.

Best of luck and enjoy the hobby - I'm sure you will do just fine!

Adam

[nevertooold]

Thanks everyone for all the info. Stu, with regards to bb tanks, do you have anything in your tank besides the discus? I guess what I struggle with is how to make life worth living for these fish. In reality they belong swimming along a river bank, not in a lifeless cube of water in our homes. I understand what you are saying is, that is the best way we can keep them healthy as we cannot hope to duplicate river bank conditions, correct? I want you to realize that I am not wanting to put 'stuff' in my tank to make it look attractive to me, I am wanting to create an environment that will give quality of life to the discus, as well as pleasure to me looking at them. If the only way to keep them alive and healthy is in an empty tank, perhaps I am not suited to doing that. Does anyone here keep their Discus in an interesting(for the fish) tank. Perhaps the advice I am getting is because I am new to this and as Paul said 'keep it simple'. Would there be hope to provide this type of fish with a more varied environment once I gain experience? I see pictures on-line of planted tanks, with gravel substrate and driftwood and Discus in those beautiful tanks. Is that attainable, or do those fish end up dying off in short order?

[a.person61]

What do you mean by anything else other then the discus. Driftwood great some rocks great tetras great german rams awasome maybe sterbai corrie.
if you won't to recreate a natural habitat like thing theres websites videos etc on the Internet to teach you how.
For the greatest of the discus cycle your tank with tetras, rummy nose are awesome. Then have a bare bottom intill your use to discus after that add in plants wood whatever to your desires. Again I NO EXPERT in DISCUS but that's what I would do in your shoes. 1 last thing a U.V filter will do great to kill Algy place in tank and run befor you get Algy super easy to do maintane.

[discuspaul]

Thanks everyone for all the info. Stu, with regards to bb tanks, do you have anything in your tank besides the discus? I guess what I struggle with is how to make life worth living for these fish. In reality they belong swimming along a river bank, not in a lifeless cube of water in our homes. I understand what you are saying is, that is the best way we can keep them healthy as we cannot hope to duplicate river bank conditions, correct? I want you to realize that I am not wanting to put 'stuff' in my tank to make it look attractive to me, I am wanting to create an environment that will give quality of life to the discus, as well as pleasure to me looking at them. If the only way to keep them alive and healthy is in an empty tank, perhaps I am not suited to doing that. Does anyone here keep their Discus in an interesting(for the fish) tank. Perhaps the advice I am getting is because I am new to this and as Paul said 'keep it simple'. Would there be hope to provide this type of fish with a more varied environment once I gain experience? I see pictures on-line of planted tanks, with gravel substrate and driftwood and Discus in those beautiful tanks. Is that attainable, or do those fish end up dying off in short order?

When I say 'keep it simple' - I do intend that as appropriate advice for a novice to discus, particularly if you're starting out with smaller fish than near adult or adult discus.
This advice is given to allow anyone new to discus to gain some experience keeping them, to become familiar with their traits & behaviors in an easier maintenance environment, and thus to gain some confidence with keeping them successfully.
So yes again, you're right, once some experience is gained - I suggest at least 6 months - up to a year - then you can move into less simple tank set-ups. No doubt you understand the rationale behind this.

These are a few pics of a set-up I had going for a period of time a while ago, with 3"-4" inch juvie fish in a planted environment. They all did very well, and I ended up selling them or giving them to my daughter. But the point is that I wouldn't suggest a newcomer to discus do this, lest he or she risk ending up with some stunted fish, or some fatalities, as what happened to me when I first started out with discus years ago, and tried this very type of set-up - i.e. young fish in a planted tank.
http://s1105.photobucket.com/albums/...spaul/redrubys

[nevertooold]

I have just read a posting here on the forums position on planted tanks and I thought it was great! Just FYI a lushly planted tank was never what I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of a substrate (will now be sand) with a few scattered rocks and some driftwood lying on the bottom and branches coming down from the top. Does that sound reasonable, or is it still possibly too much for a newby? If I left out the sand, how many rocks could there be without them causing a cleaning problem, does bacteria not grow on the driftwood? Do you clean it with the vacuum, or does good bacteria grow on it?

[discuspaul]

I have just read a posting here on the forums position on planted tanks and I thought it was great! Just FYI a lushly planted tank was never what I had in mind. I was thinking more along the lines of a substrate (will now be sand) with a few scattered rocks and some driftwood lying on the bottom and branches coming down from the top. Does that sound reasonable, or is it still possibly too much for a newby? If I left out the sand, how many rocks could there be without them causing a cleaning problem, does bacteria not grow on the driftwood? Do you clean it with the vacuum, or does good bacteria grow on it?

That would be fine, subject to your getting reasonably good-sized discus to begin with - suggest 4" or larger - and maintaining a strict routine of frequent large water changes and good tank cleansing. No particular rule on the number of rocks - just not too many and spaced far enough apart in such a way that can easily get around them to do a proper waste vacuuming job, whether you also have sand substrate or not.
Yes, the driftwood will likely maintain some beneficial bacteria, but the essential bulk of a bb colony will be in the filter media. I've never had to vacuum driftwood - nothing sticks to it except algae - lol.

[nevertooold]

Thanks Paul. I'm starting to get a pretty good idea of what I'm needing to do to get things going. Will find some of the sand you mentioned and have a look at that before I decide. One step at a time I guess