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Thread: Discus Changing Sex

  1. #16
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    The link worked for me.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  2. #17
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    strange you can see what I got??

  3. #18
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    strange you can see what I got??
    Try the link again. Adam edited his post after you tried the first time to use it.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  4. #19
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    yep it now works..

  5. #20
    Registered Member aalbina's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    OK the reason is that I work at a University and the article is part of a subscription for which we pay to this research journal Copeia - so coming from my campus we automatically have access (through a reverse DNS process for you techies). So here is the citation.
    Carruth, L. L. (2000). Freshwater Cichlid Crenicara punctulata Is a Protogynous Sequential Hermaphrodite.
    Copeia, 2000(1), 71–82. doi:10.1643/0045-8511(2000)2000[0071:FCCPIA]2.0.CO;2

    I can download the full text pdf file and read the research article but I cannot legally upload it here. Here is the abstract:

    Freshwater Cichlid Crenicara punctulata Is a Protogynous Sequential Hermaphrodite
    Full Access

    Laura L. Carruth

    Department of Environmental, Population and Organismic Biology, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado 80309-0334. Present address: Department of Physiological Science, 621 Charles E. Young Drive, South, University of California, Los Angeles, California 90095-1527. carruth@lifesci.ucla.edu.

    Abstract

    Several papers have suggested that the Freshwater Cichlid Crenicara punctulata is capable of protogynous sex change. These studies provide behavioral data and descriptive details of external morphology but lack information about gonadal histology, which is essential for definitive evidence of sequential hermaphroditism. Therefore, this study was designed to determine whether C. punctulata is a sequential hermaphrodite. The present study included a behavioral experiment, an isolation/transformation experiment, as well as a detailed analysis of gonadal structure. The behavioral experiment established social hierarchies in four groups of juvenile female C. punctulata. The hypothesis that the dominant female in each group would be the only individual to develop male secondary sexual characteristics in that group was verified. The isolation experiment tested the hypothesis that female C. punctulata would change sex without the presence of conspecifics. After social isolation, females that were previously dominant among a group of females in a male harem developed male secondary sexual characteristics. Histological analysis revealed that these individuals possessed testes, whereas all dominant females examined possessed mature ovaries. The results from behavioral, isolation, and histological portions of this project strongly suggest that C. punctulata is a protogynous sequential hermaphrodite, at least in captivity.




    Quote Originally Posted by pitdogg2 View Post
    linky no workie.....


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  6. #21
    Registered Member aalbina's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Oh great - thanks Pat, glad it works I thought maybe it was a restricted resource.

    Adam

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    Try the link again. Adam edited his post after you tried the first time to use it.
    Pat

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by aalbina View Post
    OK the reason is that I work at a University and the article is part of a subscription for which we pay to this research journal Copeia - so coming from my campus we automatically have access (through a reverse DNS process for you techies). So here is the citation.
    Carruth, L. L. (2000). Freshwater Cichlid Crenicara punctulata Is a Protogynous Sequential Hermaphrodite.
    Copeia, 2000(1), 71–82. doi:10.1643/0045-8511(2000)2000[0071:FCCPIA]2.0.CO;2

    I can download the full text pdf file and read the research article but I cannot legally upload it here. Here is the abstract:

    Freshwater Cichlid Crenicara punctulata Is a Protogynous Sequential Hermaphrodite
    Full Access

    Laura L. Carruth

    Department of Environmental, Population and Organismic Biology, University of Colorado, Boulder, Colorado 80309-0334. Present address: Department of Physiological Science, 621 Charles E. Young Drive, South, University of California, Los Angeles, California 90095-1527. carruth@lifesci.ucla.edu.

    Abstract

    Several papers have suggested that the Freshwater Cichlid Crenicara punctulata is capable of protogynous sex change. These studies provide behavioral data and descriptive details of external morphology but lack information about gonadal histology, which is essential for definitive evidence of sequential hermaphroditism. Therefore, this study was designed to determine whether C. punctulata is a sequential hermaphrodite. The present study included a behavioral experiment, an isolation/transformation experiment, as well as a detailed analysis of gonadal structure. The behavioral experiment established social hierarchies in four groups of juvenile female C. punctulata. The hypothesis that the dominant female in each group would be the only individual to develop male secondary sexual characteristics in that group was verified. The isolation experiment tested the hypothesis that female C. punctulata would change sex without the presence of conspecifics. After social isolation, females that were previously dominant among a group of females in a male harem developed male secondary sexual characteristics. Histological analysis revealed that these individuals possessed testes, whereas all dominant females examined possessed mature ovaries. The results from behavioral, isolation, and histological portions of this project strongly suggest that C. punctulata is a protogynous sequential hermaphrodite, at least in captivity.

    I believe that is the checkerboard cichlid I referenced earlier. Ted Judy recently posted a vid about this that I found interesting.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n66x5n9QrFE

  8. #23
    Registered Member JohnniG's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Probably just got the gender wrong from the get go.

  9. #24
    Registered Member n2kboyi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Wiseone,

    I totally believe and agreed to what you are saying is true. Discus do and can change sex. I have an occurrence that is almost identical to your story. I had a confirm male and i gave him to my friend who house him with a group consist of males and females but all of which is bigger than him. Later on she which was suppose to be the HE spawned with another male. I have mentioned to other discus hobbyist many of which are very knowledgeable and experienced with discus but all have denied and against of my belief. Until today I came across this thread and I am 100% the discus can and will change sex when house together with a group more dominate than him.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    interesting conversation - ' Giving to a friend' appears to be the most significant factor associated with discus sex change!

    P.S: I don't believe that discus can change sex, but I will believe it if I see it happening.

  11. #26
    Registered Member zhuls1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Hmm, i guess theres alot we don't know. There are quite a few animals that, under extreme and rare circumstances, will go through drastic changes.
    http://www.nature.com/hdy/journal/v1...tcallback=true
    I am intrigued by the complexity of these chains though. not sure if this article will be of any help.

  12. #27
    Registered Member NJDiscusGuy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    While this may sound interesting I totally disagree. I suspect that either you or your friend had made a mistake in the sexing of some of your discus.

  13. #28
    Registered Member Ryan925's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    You guys realize he posted this in 2015 right?
    Im not illiterate...only my phone's auto correct is

  14. #29
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan925 View Post
    You guys realize he posted this in 2015 right?


    Hard to say here as I have never seen a case of Discus Changing Sex, though I have seen them fool many people into thinking they were a different sex by their behavior and physical traits.


    I will note though that it is possible under circumstances for fish to develop both male and female sex traits. These cases are from chemical pollution....particularly its becoming a problem in rivers with sewer outflows. The Male fish are becoming female. The suspect is estrogen from humans. Hormones like estrogen can create male fish with female traits. This is known.


    For reference...
    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/6436617/ns.../#.WbvLRBeQyAk

    https://www.theverge.com/2017/1/11/1...water-hormones

    http://www.independent.co.uk/environ...-a7821086.html

    Add to that there are many man made chemicals that act as hormones, even though they are not, these hormone mimics also affect organisms.

    https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...imic-hormones/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenoestrogen


    So though I am very skeptical that Discus can naturally change sexes, I am also very positive that if chemicals are involved in some way, Its highly possible.

    hth,
    al
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  15. #30
    Registered Member HappyFace's Avatar
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    Default Re: Discus Changing Sex

    I found this article about fish turning hermaphrodite due to birth control in the water.

    http://www.medicaldaily.com/leftover...-affect-367816

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