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Thread: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

  1. #76
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Well, everything that could go wrong with my first batch of 'Curare' fry, did. I made the hard decision today to cull all 200+ of them. They were almost 1".

    First a new order of BBS that I received was bad, and wouldn't hatch. It took a few days to get a replacement. In the meantime I tried frozen BBS, ground pellets, ground FDBW, shaved bloodworms -- and nothing. The fry spit it all out and refused to eat. By the time I got them back on regular hatching BBS they'd probably missed a few crucial days of growth.

    Then I noticed they were dark and sluggish, and found that my heater had stopped working. The tank was in the low 70s. It took a few days to bring them back up to 82F. It was a brand new heater right out of the box. Of course out of the six new heaters I ordered, that's the one that chose to die.

    Things seemed back on track until I noticed they were flashing and scratching. It got progressively worse over the past few days. It looks like gill flukes. Now I'll have to treat the parents and start over. I ran the adults through a number of treatments when I first imported them but the Prazi and/or formalin for flukes is the one thing I didn't do. Now it's coming back to haunt me.

    Oh well, at least I have a summer project. Better to make sure they're healthy and growing well than try to sell sub-par fry. I'm still feeling pretty gutted, though.
    tough decision, and one that many can't and choose not to make which ultimately is a lose/lose for all. Good call Ryan, and I am sure you can work it out this next time around

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  2. #77
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Oh Man Ryan , that plain stinks... I was getting so excited for ya. Now you know you can do it so ... next time. Totally awesome you were able to breed them successfully. Thats definitely something to be proud of

  3. #78
    Registered Member jmf3460's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Ryan good call on culling, although I know it was hard it was the right decision. Looking forward to reading on your summer project.
    ~JACKLYN~

  4. #79
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    After two weeks of bickering and disagreements, the female is in spawning colors again tonight.



    Third time's a charm?


  5. #80
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Dang these guys are beautiful. Best of luck with the third time around Ryan.
    Pat
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  6. #81
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    Dang these guys are beautiful. Best of luck with the third time around Ryan.
    Pat
    Couldn't agree more. I know if I had a large tank I'd be giving you a call if you were successful at breeding them

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  7. #82
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    I have free-swimmers as of Wednesday, July 29th. I lost a lot of eggs this time, and about 10 - 15 wrigglers a day for the five days they were wriggling, and even still I have way more fry this time than last time. I'm not sure what caused the losses, though.

    This time around I sterilized the hatching tank and I did a formalin dip on the eggs for an hour before moving the flower pot they were laid on into the hatching tank. I've done a lot of reading about using formalin as a bath or dip for fish eggs to prevent fungus, but my main reason for the dip was to hopefully kill off any flukes or protozoa that might have been passed on from the parents. I'm thinking this is what caused the flashing/scratching issue with the last batch of fry. Unfortunately I didn't have time to clean up the parents before they spawned again.

    The weird thing is that formalin is supposedly really good at preventing egg fungus, and yet I had way more eggs fungus this time than the first time. I did not expose the actual wrigglers to formalin -- I only did a dip on the eggs and then moved them into the sterile tank. So I'm still unsure as to why I had so many die-offs and so many fungused eggs. The free-swimmers that I have now are eating well and they have had two small water changes since Wednesday so fingers crossed that this batch goes better.

  8. #83
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Hope this batch goes all the way for you Ryan.
    Pat
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


  9. #84
    Registered Member Eddie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Super nice!
    Visit Eddie's Place

    "If you ask for an opinion...don't get pissed when I give you mine."

  10. #85
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    It looks like your Heros are not the real Heros severum:

    Abstract:
    "Heros liberifer sp. n. is described from the drainage of the upper and middle Rio Orinoco in Venezuela. The new species is distinguished from all other Heros species by its unique colouration pattern of several horizontal series of tiny bright red dots on the lower half of the body sides and by its unusual brood care. Heros liberifer sp. n. can be distinguished from the syntopic Heros severus Heckel, 1840 by a distinct caudal spot, narrower lips, a bright red ins and the 4th vertical bar, which is not shortened, but extends from the anal fin base to the base of the dorsal fin. In addition, comments are made on the colouration of live specimens of Heros severus, its distribution and ecology"

  11. #86
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Quote Originally Posted by plecocicho View Post
    It looks like your Heros are not the real Heros severum:

    Abstract:
    "Heros liberifer sp. n. is described from the drainage of the upper and middle Rio Orinoco in Venezuela. The new species is distinguished from all other Heros species by its unique colouration pattern of several horizontal series of tiny bright red dots on the lower half of the body sides and by its unusual brood care. Heros liberifer sp. n. can be distinguished from the syntopic Heros severus Heckel, 1840 by a distinct caudal spot, narrower lips, a bright red ins and the 4th vertical bar, which is not shortened, but extends from the anal fin base to the base of the dorsal fin. In addition, comments are made on the colouration of live specimens of Heros severus, its distribution and ecology"
    Actually, this paper seems to be reclassifying the mouthbrooding severums into Heros liberifer. The full paper is not yet available, but Peter Dittrich wrote this on Facebook in regards to Heros liberifer:

    Itīs the new Name for the Mouthbrooder...The Mouthbrooder was named as Heros severus since 1994, But this was wrong. I know that Staeck & Schindler discibed this species at least on 6 samples from the Manapiare River (Laguna Piranha - a small Lake beside the Manapiare River). These Fishes were collected by my good Friend Roland Rietsch in 2012. Staeck get this fishes from me. Probably Steack & Schindler have used some fishes they collected by them self... But this is more than unlikely.
    That paves the way for another fish to be described as true Heros severus. It could be the ones I've got, or it could be something else. There are a few which meet the criteria of the half 7th bar.

  12. #87
    Registered Member Ardan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Ryan,
    How is this latest batch doing?

    Ardan

  13. #88
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Ryan, as the abstract says, the article will provide live photo and ecology of true H. severum, cant wait. It looks like the biodiversity of Heroinii subtribus (Mesonauta, Heros, Uaro, discus, angelfish) is much larger than we know at the moment.

  14. #89
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    Quote Originally Posted by plecocicho View Post
    Ryan, as the abstract says, the article will provide live photo and ecology of true H. severum, cant wait. It looks like the biodiversity of Heroinii subtribus (Mesonauta, Heros, Uaro, discus, angelfish) is much larger than we know at the moment.
    Clarification from Juan Miguel Artigas Azas at Cichlid Room Companion:

    A new Heros species for what in recent years has been incorrectly known as Heros severus has been described by Wolfgang Staeck and Ingo Schindler in the journal “Bulletin of Fish Biology”. The new species Heros liberifer differs from all Heros species by a pattern of several horizontal series of bright red dots on the lower half of the body sides (versus no rows of red dots), tiny dark dots on operculum and cheeks in adult males (versus large dots or a vermicular pattern) and other aspects. It differs from its partly sympatric (having the same distribution) species H. severus in several morphological, behavioral and ecological aspects. The new species is a mouth-brooder, from which its specific name liberifer (Children carrier in Latin) was inspired, plus unlike H. severus it is found not only in black water but also in clear and white water, with a higher pH. H. liberifer is described from the Orinoco basin in Venezuela, but it can also be found in the Casiquiare River (that connects the upper Rio Negro and Orinoco basins) and in the middle and upper Rio Negro in Brazil.

    Staeck, Wolfgang & I. Schindler. 2015. "Description of a new Heros species (Teleostei, Cichlidae) from the Rio Orinoco drainage and notes on Heros severus Heckel, 1840". Bulletin of Fish Biology. v. 15(n. 1-2), pp. 121-136
    So the mouthbrooder previously called H. severus (incorrectly) has been officially described as a new species, Heros liberifer.

  15. #90
    Platinum Member Ryan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Heros sp. 'Curare' - potentially the real Heros severus

    It’s that time again.


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