Planted Tank lighting help

[BADFISHY]

Greeting All. I have recently re-acquired one of two custom 125g tanks w/ stand and canopy that I hand made about nine years ago. Just happened to pop up on craigslist after I started looking for a used tank a few weeks ago. Originally I had one planted tank and the other planned for African cichlids, although I never got around to the cichlids before things fell apart. The planted tank was a south American community that did fairly well with what eventually became over whelming jungle valis. I was going to go for the African cichlids but have now decided that I really want another planted tank and have fallen in love with the discus. Thinking of costs up front I was speculating a low tech set up, but now I'm not sure how far I want to go. Knowing myself as a gear junky, I'm pretty sure things will get out of control on the technical equipment side as I generally can't contain myself to the basics. Never know though...maybe yall I can help me along here.

Okay so here's what I have. Marineland 72" tank with glass tops and low canopy with little clearance. [lack of oversight on my part when built] Filtration will be provided by twin fx5 filters. I've ordered new impellors and very much hoping I can get these bad girls running quietly. They are eight years old, but sat around for about two years. Substrate will be a thin layer of peat moss, covered by eco complete covered by Tahitian moon sand. Love the dark look. Back of tank is painted black. I'm going to order about four to five pieces of upright/slate mounted wood in various sizes from Big Al's.

Here's the big, and probably monotonous question. I want LED lights do to electric costs in my neck of the woods. I also am not sure I want to ad c02 at this point. I don't know the rule of lighting for LED set ups. I had already ordered 2-24' marineland advanced fixtures before I decided on planting. [the basic fixtures, not the planted high output fixtures] Going to return those. So what now? I like the marineland fixtures because they have the lunar lights and timers, but I'm not sure of their output. Will two 'planted' marineland 36" be enough. I can't fit the larger fixtures under this canopy, I don't think. Maybe two 24" on the back sides and a Current SAT 48 across the front? I'm a bit concerned with the quality of the Marineland fixtures as I've read some bad reviews of them failing in one form or another. I'm not interested in buying new fixtures every two years. Also I may have difficulty programming them under this canopy every time the power goes out. Seems they reset to factory settings with an outage which is daily here in Florida rain season. I could of course get like a computer type battery back up but those aren't cheap last time I checked. Should I go all SAT, or something different altogether. I want lots of plants in this tank but not necessarily a lot of varieties. Maybe four to five low to medium light plant groups. Again ,not wanting to ad c02 right away, if ever.

Stocking will be at least six discus, lots of neon tetras, corydoras, maybe two smaller ornamental plecos, etc etc. Will the neons be okay with the fx5 filters? Don't want them stuck to the intakes!

A secondary project will be an aging tank on the back porch to soften the Florida water and keep away from dechlorinators. I'm thinking a small 50g pond surrounded by rock with an air pump or waterfall to churn the water. My problem with this is the water temp getting to warm in the Florida heat. Also looking for ideas on getting the aged water to the tank for water changes. Pond Pump attached to a hose? I'll take some feed back on this idea as well.

Any input or ideas or experience with lighting/equipement/stocking or aging tank is very much appreciated.

[BADFISHY]

Prior set ups and current home. Doors are uniquely removable.

[TexMoHoosier]

Not sure how much experience you have with planted aquariums. With a planted aquarium you're trying to find a delicate balance between lighting, ferts and CO2 (IME the more light, the more sensitive your system will be). Finding that balance typically means different fertilizer amounts/proportions, different CO2 dosing and different light combinations/spectrums. If you're like me and you tinker with the light set up, you may find it cheaper to go with T5HO lights since it's easier and cheaper to swap bulbs out to find what works versus buying a new LED fixture. Once you find that sweet spot, you can drop the money for a custom LED fixture that provides the spectrum you need. I personally gave up on LEDs because the good ones are several hundred dollars and the cheaper ones I've tried never provided the right spectrum.

I know you said you weren't interested in CO2, but you may want to reconsider if you can scrape up the cash, especially if you creep into the medium light range and find yourself fighting algae. CO2 is usually the limiting factor when it comes to excess light or nutrients and algae will thrive if you have one of the two in excess. I would also recommend a controller if you're using pressurized CO2 with discus, as you can be setting yourself up for big pH swings otherwise.

[strawberryblonde]

I use USA Satellite LED's with the remote control and they grow plants very nicely. I have both low and medium light plants. The cool part about this particular LED light strip is that you can manually set the lighting you want - so you can have settings to show off your discus or settings to encourage plant growth. Oh and it isn't very expensive - bonus!!

I don't use CO2 or ferts at all. Just planted everything in plain old sand and it took off on me. If you're going with some of the higher light plants, then you'd need the extras.

You won't be able to use the Tahitian Moon sand in a discus tank. It's only for saltwater and African cichlids. If you find another dark sand then you'll need to make sure that you purchase discus who can handle the darker colors. No pigeon bloods for sure and I've found that the blues tend to darken to blend in to the point that you can't see them. I also have a red cover who loves to blend into my black background, so I can just imagine what she'd do with black sand too.

Oh and neon's don't do well with the higher temps of a discus tank. Cardinal tetra's, rummynose and lemons can handle the heat and look great in a large school.

[BADFISHY]

I'm really confused now SB. Why no Tahitian moon sand with discus and why would a discus care about darker sand if they typically prefer darker environment? Why is a discus tank any hotter than any other tank? And why have I seen dozens of tanks with discus and neons together as well as numerous suggestions for neons and discus together?

[BADFISHY]

Ty for the input TX. I am fond of c02, just not right away and want to see if I can go without first. I'm checking out Build My LED and liking this option for a single 72"LED.

[strawberryblonde]

I'm really confused now SB. Why no Tahitian moon sand with discus and why would a discus care about darker sand if they typically prefer darker environment? Why is a discus tank any hotter than any other tank? And why have I seen dozens of tanks with discus and neons together as well as numerous suggestions for neons and discus together?

Ok, here goes! =)

1) If you read the info on Tahitian Moon Sand it is made for saltwater and African Cichlid tanks. It will raise your pH, which is fine for those types of fish and not fine for discus.

2) Discus enjoy tannin stained water (if they are wild caught, domestics don't know the difference) but they will always try to blend in with their surroundings, so dark substrate means that blue and brown based fish will appear much darker and not as brightly colored. Pigeon bloods are a mutation that, through careful breeding, have eliminated the black bars. The problem with that is, as I've said, they try to blend in, so dark substrate can cause them to "pepper", get black freckles on their bodies and black fins.

3) A discus tank is hotter than others because discus prefer temps between 82F and 86F. At times you may even need to raise the temps higher. Not so good for neons, they don't live long in those temps. You might be thinking of cardinal tetra's though who very closely resemble neon's. As for why you've seen numerous suggestions for adding neons to a discus tank, I have no answer for you. You can add them, just don't expect them to live as long.

[BADFISHY]

Okay, Ty SB. I did not know discus like warmer water. That's good news as my aging tank is likely going to be warner. I think you're right on with cardinals. I had forgotten they look like neons. Been awhile since i have been in the fish game.

I am going to disagree with you on tahitian moos sand. It is inert.

[strawberryblonde]

I went ahead and read up on the Tahitian Moon Sand and you are correct that it is now inert. It used to be sold as Reef and Marine sand and wasn't inert, but that was several years ago so I've learned something new today. =)

It sounds like maybe you're very new to discus? If so, there is some very good educational reading in the beginners section of the forums. I'll add a little bit here to get you started and then you can read up on more there.

1) Discus live in slow moving, low pH waters that are extremely clean due to high volume turnover. Domestic discus have been bred to do well in higher pH waters, but still appreciate slow moving water and super high water quality is still a must. Nitrates should be kept as close to zero as possible. Above 10ppm will produce issues down the road. Above 20ppm produces serious problems in a much shorter period of time. Nitrates have a cumulative effect on discus. It's not an overnight thing, it's a month after month thing. In addition to nitrates there's the problems of keeping good levels of minerals in the water column. They need 'em! And then there's the slow and steady buildup of pathogens which reproduce very well in the nice warm waters of a discus tank. Since it's a closed environment, the only way to reduce the populations of pathogens and replace minerals is to do many more water changes than you would ever do with a standard fresh water tank.

2) Discus do best at temps between 82F - 86F.

3) Discus require high protein foods, much higher than many other fish you may have kept in the past. Most people here feed frozen or flaked beefheart to juvenile and sub-adult discus along with discus flakes, pellets and some form of freeze dried blackworms. Adult discus don't need the beefheart, but still need a variety of other high protein foods.

4) The least expensive way to acquire discus is to purchase them from a sponsor here on the forums and, as a first time buyer, to buy sub-adults. They are less pricey than adults, but sturdier than juveniles.

5) For raising juveniles and sub-adults, it's recommended that you start out with a bare bottom tank, a heater and a couple of sponge filters. These guys require many more feedings per day than adults and the food fouls both the water and things like canister filters very quickly. You'll find that most of the old timers here on the forums also raise their discus in bare bottom tanks. I've tried it both with bare bottom, with just a substrate and driftwood and with a full planted tank and I can tell you from experience that bare bottom is the surest and easiest way to grow them out to their full potential while making things as simple as possible.

6) Once your discus are full grown, you can then add substrate and plant the tank, add driftwood, etc. If you still decide to go with black sand and/or a black background you'll need to think carefully about what strains to purchase. Blue Diamonds look great against black and don't darken as much as brown based discus. Blue turqs, eriuption leopards, etc DO darken considerably against a black background and strains like the Red Cover with be nearly invisible in your tank. It's not recommended to put Pigeon Blood strains into a tank with dark backgrounds and substrates because of the peppering problem. They do best with a light background and white sand.

7) Sub-adult discus will need to be fed 5-6 times per day till they reach 5"-6". They grow very quickly if they are in the right conditions (bare bottom or just a thin layer of sand and a piece of driftwood) and if you change water daily. In general, most people here change at least 80% per day till they reach 5". I personally do 90% per day with 5-6 feedings per day till they reach 6". I continue to do 90% every day, but cut back to 3 feedings per day till mine reach 8".

So how fast do they grow as sub-adults? With proper feeding and water changes mine grow at a rate of 3/4" - 1" per month till 6". At that point it's safe to put them into a planted tank, so long as you continue with regular water changes. So, if you buy 3.5" - 4" discus you'll be growing them out for about 3 months. For me, a bare bottom tank, huge feedings and big daily water changes for 3 months is a small price to pay for getting huge gorgeous, healthy discus!

I hope I haven't overwhelmed you with info. There's much more to learn in the beginner section.

[BADFISHY]

TY for the info Toni. You have actually almost completely turned my off to the idea,lol. Daily water changes of any sort are not on the menu, period, ever, neva, not happening! I will opt for mature discus and thinking of adding a refugium. I'll read up on the color changing versus substrate, but I frankly don't get it. From a natural standpoint a fish should boast more color in darker environments hence the brightly colored amazon fish versus less colorful fish in clear waters. Not saying you are wrong by any means. just doesn't make sense to me. I would be happy with just one or two or three different types of discus. Not a fan of the reds so much or anything brownish.