AquaticSuppliers.com     Golden State Discus

View Poll Results: How would you rate the growth rate of these fry on a scale of 1-10?

Voters
13. You may not vote on this poll
  • 1

    0 0%
  • 2

    0 0%
  • 3

    1 7.69%
  • 4

    0 0%
  • 5

    0 0%
  • 6

    1 7.69%
  • 7

    1 7.69%
  • 8

    3 23.08%
  • 9

    0 0%
  • 10

    7 53.85%
Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 57

Thread: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

  1. #16
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Second Hand Pat View Post
    Luke, how many fry are part of this experiment?
    Pat
    9 fry in a 40 gallon breeder plus 13 adult discus in a 100 gallons. Both tanks are plumbed to the sump.

  2. #17
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by warblad79 View Post
    Try raising 200+ fry to the 40 gallon breeder tank. Well see If your sump can keep up, your experiment is only base on fewer fish. That's why you can get away with less WC. I'm pretty sure a lot of people already try this experiment but most of them failed miserably and you'll see them on disease section all the time.

    Agreed. At some point, the quantity of fish vs filtration capacity will be overpowered. I watched the Nitrate levels and they always stayed under 30ppm. Normally, I prefer 0-10.

    But what if we were able to feed more often with the same WC and get better growth or do less WC and still have super healthy fish? Obviously WC can never be eliminated 100%. This might just be another tool to use in conjunction with overall good husbandry.

  3. #18
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,694

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Wait, are there seperate tanks with good size batches from same spawn? Really hoping so because then I'd love to see difference in every day large wc and then the other. Otherwise, it's just growing a batch in one condition. Would loooove to see comparison.
    -Elliot

  4. #19
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by pastry View Post
    Wait, are there seperate tanks with good size batches from same spawn? Really hoping so because then I'd love to see difference in every day large wc and then the other. Otherwise, it's just growing a batch in one condition. Would loooove to see comparison.
    Ah, that would have been a great idea! I thought I would just compare their growth to "standard" fry growth.
    I'll see if I can pull that off with the next batch of fry so there are 2 groups to compare.

  5. #20
    Registered Member pastry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Charleston, SC
    Posts
    2,694

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke in Phoenix View Post
    Ah, that would have been a great idea! I thought I would just compare their growth to "standard" fry growth.
    I'll see if I can pull that off with the next batch of fry so there are 2 groups to compare.
    Please do! Want to do it myself in future. Same spawn but split up. Hard to compare others fish but still, anything documented helps in future ( even my screw ups)
    -Elliot

  6. #21
    Homesteader Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Macedonia-Europe
    Posts
    3,639
    Real Name
    Filip

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    I just can't belive how efficient alge scrubber is in eating nitrates.
    It filters 13 grown discus plus 10 raising fry without Wc and manage to keep nitrates under 30ppm?
    Do you have other supportive filtration except the scrubber?

    What do you do with feces and remain food after meals,you must at least siphon that out followed with 10 % wc.??

    I consider this experiment educational in terms of testing the efficiency of the alge scrubbers as additional filtration in our tanks.
    As an addition to ou weekly/ daily Wc routines and other filtration methods,especially in display tanks.

    Keep us posted please.

  7. #22
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    I just can't belive how efficient alge scrubber is in eating nitrates.
    It filters 13 grown discus plus 10 raising fry without Wc and manage to keep nitrates under 30ppm?
    Do you have other supportive filtration except the scrubber?

    What do you do with feces and remain food after meals,you must at least siphon that out followed with 10 % wc.??

    I consider this experiment educational in terms of testing the efficiency of the alge scrubbers as additional filtration in our tanks.
    As an addition to ou weekly/ daily Wc routines and other filtration methods,especially in display tanks.

    Keep us posted please.


    Other supportive filtration includes:
    - 2 UV Sterilizers
    - 2 Filter socks
    - Large Eheim 2076 canister filter

    This is a pic of the current setup as of today. The canister filter and one of the UV Sterilizers had to be placed beside the stand because of space.
    2015-11-01 13.46.29.jpg


    For the next phase, I've placed 2 pairs in the top bare bottom tank (separated by a mesh screen) and 7 discus in the bottom display tank (including 1 pair). All fish are active, vibrant and healthy looking so far.


    To get rid of the leftover feces I use an Eheim quick vac pro daily on the top tank. I only used it once on the bottom tank so far. It sucks up everything without a WC. The only other water that has been changed is collecting the surface water out of the sump with a cup every couple of days. I let the water overflow into the cup so it siphons off the top layer of water. This gets rid of a "bubbly" layer that builds up on top. I guess you could count that as a 1% WC every couple of days.



    I learned a ton during this "trial". It has not been a "magical" or "no work" fix.

    These are a couple of things I learned when adding an algae scrubber to your system:

    - Algae screen has to be taken out and cleaned every 1-2 weeks depending on how much you feed.
    - I keep my KH at 3-4. The Algae consumed all of it and was 0 before I realized. I had to slowly buffer it back up to 3-4. KH has to monitored.
    - Algae needs Phosphate to clean effectively. My tank ran out and I actually have to dose the tank with very small amounts of phosphate to "feed" the algae and keep it working. I now buffer the Phosphate at 1-2 PPM
    - You'll have to top off the tank with RO or similar water to ensure the TDS does not keep rising.
    - You'll need to add minerals to water that are naturally depleted by discus. I add fish specefic vitamins / minerals to water to keep a TDS of around 300-320
    - This is more of my opinion, but if you change less water you'll have to have a large UV sterilizer to help keep the water clean
    - The lights get hot, you'll need to watch your temperature closely
    - A "bubbly" layer of water that I mentioned already has to be siphoned off every few days (but maybe this is just my tank?)


    Depending on the quantity of water changes performed, I think many of the above items will go away. I've just taken it to the extreme for this trial with very limited WC.

  8. #23
    Homesteader Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Macedonia-Europe
    Posts
    3,639
    Real Name
    Filip

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    What do you clean the algae from? Gunk, small poop particles like in a filter foam?

    I don't understand the part of using Ro for Tds not to rise. How can Tds rise in this system?

    P.s what kind of alge is growing in your algae scrubber?

  9. #24
    Homesteader Filip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Macedonia-Europe
    Posts
    3,639
    Real Name
    Filip

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Im sure you allready have watched this video , as its been for a long time on net , but it serves the subject .
    Its a notorious- substrate planted and overstocked discus tank with next to zero WC and yet succesfull tank .
    The owner also like you swears on a refugium as a perfect filtration for long term succes in keepin Discus with almost no WC .

    Both of your stories are almost "to good to be true" and it makes me wonder why refugiums and algae scrubbers arent allready widespread practice for filtration .

    Here is the link:


  10. #25
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Grand Rapids, MI
    Posts
    8,054
    Real Name
    Rick

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    I am a little confused here. Two months into your experiment and this is your first post on the matter? I looked through your old posts, but found no mention of this experiment?
    Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

  11. #26
    Photo Guru SMB2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    1,074

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    If you were going to do a comparison study, you would have to have two identical but separate set ups. You could not have two tanks connected to one sump. Because, doing a water change on one tank would actually be doing a water change on the whole system.
    Would be interesting to divide a fry batch in half and grow out in the two different water change environments.
    Also as some will chime in, WC is not just to keep high nitrates down (from large multiple feedings). There are other elements in fresh water that are beneficial. Also the grow period would probably have to be carried out to 6/12 months.
    None the less, if you have the time, studies like this are, I think very interesting and should be encouraged. The hard part is having large enough numbers of fish and days of growth in two comparable environments to make the study more than just anecdotal.
    Stan

    SIMPLY DISCUS IS AN OXYMORON

  12. #27
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    What do you clean the algae from? Gunk, small poop particles like in a filter foam?

    I don't understand the part of using Ro for Tds not to rise. How can Tds rise in this system?

    P.s what kind of alge is growing in your algae scrubber?

    I actually don't "clean the aglae", I remove the algae from the screen and throw it away.


    Because I'm only removing a limited amount of water, we'll say 5% a month, you have to replace the evaporated water with RO water that has a very low TDS so that the total TDS of your aquarium does not continue to rise.


    Good question on what kind of algae is growing but I have no idea. It just grows automatically. I've seen it called "hair algae".

  13. #28
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    I am a little confused here. Two months into your experiment and this is your first post on the matter? I looked through your old posts, but found no mention of this experiment?

    Definitely, if it didn't work that well why post about it. I also wasn't 100% confident I was going to get good results and was always on standby ready to do large WC. I
    I did always take pictures though and document those in my discus fry album on here.

  14. #29
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by SMB2 View Post
    If you were going to do a comparison study, you would have to have two identical but separate set ups. You could not have two tanks connected to one sump. Because, doing a water change on one tank would actually be doing a water change on the whole system.
    Would be interesting to divide a fry batch in half and grow out in the two different water change environments.
    Also as some will chime in, WC is not just to keep high nitrates down (from large multiple feedings). There are other elements in fresh water that are beneficial. Also the grow period would probably have to be carried out to 6/12 months.
    None the less, if you have the time, studies like this are, I think very interesting and should be encouraged. The hard part is having large enough numbers of fish and days of growth in two comparable environments to make the study more than just anecdotal.

    Neither tank received extra WC because they are connected.

    Agreed it would be interesting to divide the fry and see how each grew out. I will at least be able to do another group out to 6 months in the next trial.



    I'm a skeptic and wanted to try out this method for myself to see how well it worked.

    I've started doing more research and learned that there are many other successful "closed system" aquariums. Not just a few people posting about it online.


    - 4 acre aquaculture system in Falls City, Texas was built in 1997. It is a nearly closed system with very limited WC and filtered by Algae Scrubbers. It grows 375,000 tilapia and sells them to the San Antonio fish markets

    - a 30 Million gallon aquaculture facility was built in Florida in 1999 and ran completely closed (no WC) for 2 years with high quality fish using algae scrubbers. It was only closed because of cheaper foreign fisheries.

    - The Smithsonian built and ran a "closed system" in 1992 with algae scrubbers that successfully ran for over 13 years. The Smithsonian also built other closed systems using algae scrubbers.

    - Great Barrier Reef Marine Park in Townsville, Australia has operated algae scrubbers as it's "primary water quality control system" for over 20 years



    Maybe this doesn't apply to discus because they are so niche and unique? But maybe it does. I would argue that coral reef systems are much more sensitive than discus.



    I ordered this book because I've read it has years and years of science and research on this topic and others. I'll let you know what I find. It's over 500 pages and I'm a slow reader so I'm not sure how exciting it's going to be! haha
    2015-11-02 22.02.06.jpg
    "Dynamic Aquaria, Building and Restoring Living Ecosystems"



    Ps. love your signature Stan!

  15. #30
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    225
    Real Name
    Luke

    Default Re: How to grow out large fry experiment - How many water changes needed

    Quote Originally Posted by SMB2 View Post
    Also as some will chime in, WC is not just to keep high nitrates down (from large multiple feedings). There are other elements in fresh water that are beneficial.
    Agreed. In order to provide trace elements I buffer with Seachem Discus Trace and use high quality food with lots of vitamins.
    Discus Trace.jpg
    "Discus Trace™supplies a broad range of trace elements demonstrated to be necessary for proper fish health and growth"

    It's probably not a bod idea to use some of this anyways. Who knows what is or isn't in the tap water.

Page 2 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Cafepress