Discus pair on fifteenth failed spawn. Need Advice

[T.C_Discus]

Hello, i,m quite new to breeding discus and things are not going too well. I brought a proven discus pair off TradeMe (New Zealand's equivalent of ebay) about seven months ago they were an inexperienced pair. It took them a couple months before they breed in our tank, but they immediately knew the ropes and the had a very high hatch rate but the wigglers diapered (probably eaten) just before they became free swimming. that was the first spawn, now its there 15th spawn and the furthest they have gotten was when about 15 wigglers attached to the parents but were then presumable eaten in the night. I'm getting very frustrated and I don't know if the problem is me, the fish, the water or maybe I have to be more patient. Any advice on what to do will be greatly appreciated.

well here is everything about the tank, the fish and water.

Both of the fish are over 2 years old and are about 14cm (5.5inches)

ammonia: 0ppm
nitrite: 0ppm
nitrate: 10ppm
pH: 6.4-6.8

The tank is 50 gallons and has a canister filter. both the intake and outtake have sponges to reduce suction and flow.
Any advice would be appreciated.

[alcastro]

I have two pairs one of them the fry will disappear the next day, I sudpected the female ate them so pulled her out all is good now, the other pair are just cannivals haft to arteficialy raise fry

[MD.David]

If I may suggest a few things.
I would try the pair in a 20gallon tank.
Use only a hydro sponge filter for filtration and aeration, (I would recommend "ATI hydro sponge #4).
Make sure the sponge filter is seeded and seasoned with a very good amount of beneficial Bactria to ensure no ammonia or nitrite.
The water should be blended with RO and Tap water to have as little TDS but still achieve very stable PH, possibly start at 35-45ppm but (depending on how much natural buffer your tap water has) you could go to 18ppm.
Keep your temp at 81degreese, do not let it fluctuate below 80 but try to stay under 85 if it bounces around time to time but stability is the key, (I didn't see what you said I could have missed it).
Make your tank white on three side and bottom, (I use mactac high adhesive polyester drawn and shelving coverings, comes in 18inch wide x 9 ft rolls, peel the paper off the back and stick it to the outer glass, it is removable if you want but it sticks really good).

Finally the only thing I can think of that is your (possibly) major failed point is using a canister filter on a breeding tank, I think the fry is getting sucked to your intake prefilter, the fry might crush in the prefilter sponge from the suction pressure, then the parents come and eat their dead carcus before you can find the bodies... However I am speculating, but I would strongly recommend against breeding in a tank with a canister filter on it, but I'm sure some might be successful but I never was.
This is what I breed in, tank a look at my set up, I have acceptable results and I know there are many others that breed this way as well.
image.jpg
I would also comment that don't be too discouraged, you did get 15 to bond with the parents for a time, this is great, little steps at a time, I promise you this: you will achieve a successful spawn and raise the fry to adulthood it if you stay persistent.

[mollyb]

You can try leaving the lights on 24/7 after the eggs are laid. Or maybe a bright room light, so the fry are not in the dark.

[John_Nicholson]

Usually when the fry are getting eaten it is by the female. What strain of discus are they? Are they a pigeon blood type of fish? How often are you changing water? I keep my tanks at 82. As soon as mine start to wiggle I change them over to fairly hard water. They only need soft water for the eggs to develop and hatch. I have raise fry in tanks ranging from 20 gallon to 120 gallon. I have a friend that liked wilds and he raised some spawns in a 265. The amazon is a damned big place but if they are a PB type of pair we might have to help them a little.

-john

[T.C_Discus]

image.jpg
That's the setup I have (if I uploaded the picture correctly)
The discus are blue turquoise, the larger fish is the male and the smaller one is the female
Currently I do not own an RO unit nor a TDS test kit, but I do think that the water in the area I live in has a low TDS I also think this because I get quite high hatch rates which wouldn't be achievable in water with a higher TDS. My temperature is at about 84-85 degrees which I now not is too high so I will change that. I also dont keep any lights on
24-7, daylight lights the tank up during the day and I keep the tank lights on from about 6pm to 11pm. If you think that may be a problem I'll be more than willing to buy a low watt light to run at night. Also regarding the canister filter, the intake sponge has a very low suction and I have seen freeswimming fry swim onto it and off again with ease but if you still think I could be an issue I will replace it with a sponge filter.

[warblad79]

Your setup is perfect for growing out juvies, I have 50 gallon standard tank and I split it into 2 because It's too big for breeding. Sometimes the fry get lost and go other side of the corner so it's better to use smaller tank for easy attachment.

Here's my breeding setup

20 Gallon tall tank
Sponge filter
82F Degrees
50% WC Daily
RO 60% 40% and I added peat to make water little darker also lower PH
Also dim the light. IMAG0971.jpg

[John_Nicholson]

If that pair is any good that tank is fine. I have 2 pairs carrying fry right now. One cobalt pair and one brilliant pair. Both pair are in their own 75 gallon tank. Not sure why the pictures did not show for me the first time I responded. Obviously they are not a PB pair. Next spawn cover the eggs and take out the female. Let us know how that works.

-john

[rickztahone]

Beautiful pair btw

[Alight]

Notice that the water level is much lower in Warblad's tank. This is the best way to ensure the fry get attached and the parents start take care of them. A Sponge filter makes this much easier to do than a HOB or canister filter. I have raised large batches in a 55 gallon tank, with HOB filters, but it is really hit or miss with that, since I cannot lower the water level enough, so sometimes the fry attach and other times they don't.

[John_Nicholson]

There should be no need to lower the water lever with that pair. The small tank, lowering the water lever, the dim lights kind of tricks were all developed for PB strains. With most PB's now days they are not needed anymore. They can be a big help with albino pairs. When they spawn in the Amazon you think someone is going out there and draining it down to 10 gallons or water. I did not read anywhere where it was stated that the fry were swimming all over the tank and not getting attachment. I think the problem is the female eating the eggs. Best thing to do is to cover the eggs and then pull the female. If the fry still get eaten then the next spawn do the same thing but pull the male.

-john

[T.C_Discus]

As an update I have just discovered that the female is the culprit of eating the new fry as I just saw her swim into the the cluster of fry, knocking many off and eating many others. My question now is what should I do? Because I am reluctant to seperate the pair.
Adding on to how the female killed the fry, it was quite weird because she sporadically darted/ramed into the cluster of fry a few times and it looked quite violent but when I came closer to the tank she stopped with about ten fry left. Is there anything I can do to stop this radical behaviour? Or is there no hope of changing that?

[John_Nicholson]

Look above. It is not weird for the female to be the one eating the fry. If the fry are being eaten it is normally the female that does it. It is because her hormones are telling her it is time to spawn again. No problem taking her out. When they spawn cover the eggs, take her out. Once the male raises the fry for a few weeks take the fry out and put the female back in. They will spawn again and the process will start again.

-john

[CliffsDiscus]

As an update I have just discovered that the female is the culprit of eating the new fry as I just saw her swim into the the cluster of fry, knocking many off and eating many others. My question now is what should I do? Because I am reluctant to seperate the pair.
Adding on to how the female killed the fry, it was quite weird because she sporadically darted/ramed into the cluster of fry a few times and it looked quite violent but when I came closer to the tank she stopped with about ten fry left. Is there anything I can do to stop this radical behaviour? Or is there no hope of changing that?

The female is probably eating the wrigglers that are weak. You can pull out the eggs and hatch them yourself and see how many wrigglers will make it to
free swimming, but 15 spawns is almost the end to the life spawning of most female.

Cliff

[Willie]

In my experience, the female is usually the culprit. Go with John's approach, take the female out first if the fry is being eaten. If that doesn't work, then try the male.