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Thread: Nitrogen cycle won't start

  1. #1
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    Default Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Hey, I set up a 40 gallon tank a while ago and I did a fishless cycle for two weeks (nitrite and ammonia went to zero) and then added 3 small discus. But after that I decided to remove all the gravel and go with a bare bottom tank, I thought the bacteria in the filter will continue the cycle, but I was thinking wrong !

    I noticed that the fish was getting a bit darker and skittish, I did a test and yes the ammonia was 1ppm and nitrite and nitrate were zero !! immediately added prime to detoxify the ammonia and increased my water change to 30% daily. But it has been almost 4 weeks that the cycle have not started, I still read zero for nitrite and nitrate.

    Filteration system: 2 Aqua Clear 70 filter + DIY 1 litre k1 bottle filter

    Do you think there is not enough surface for bacteria in the bare bottom tank? do I need to use another type of filter? Does adding some bb lie TSS help?

    Thank you guys

  2. #2
    Registered Member CrazyAngels's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Sorry to tell you, but fishless cycles can sometimes go for 12 weeks before complete. You jumped in way too early and now the fish waste has started the cycle for you, the problem is they will suffer from it and the only thing you can do is big water changes daily to keep the fish from becoming more affected by the ammonia and subsequent nitrite spike. The filters will populate in due time and take over.

    good luck.
    Jorge Q

  3. #3
    Homesteader Filip's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Don't worry.
    Just do 90% daily Wc with siphoning leftovers for a month or two and they will be fine.
    I know this is easier said than done , but it will fix your Discus for sure.

    P.s. 3 is not a good number for discus. You should have bought at least 6 of them.
    If you can buy 3 more but from the same breeder and same tank/batch,consider it as an option for a longterm success with discus.
    Good luck.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    5-6 is a good number but minimally a 55 gal, preferably larger, is the way to go in that case.

    I keep my Aquaclears with the foam on the bottom, filter floss in the middle, and then some type of bio media as the last stage. The filter floss and foam are easily wrung out with the water from the water changes. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious.

    You may also want to look at one of those instant bio cultures that all pet stores carry. In the meanwhile, big water changes will help a lot. Good luck.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    You did the fishless cycle with the ammonia from Ace hardware and the bacteria started bur two weeks was not enough time for the cycle to be complete. Even if you did another fishless cycle with another tank before the 40 gal you should not assume the cycling process would take the same time. The biggest mistake you made was to remove the substrate and add discus and think you had the same amount of bacteria you had when you had the substrate. I've used the fishless cycle many times and never ever had a problem and all the tanks cycled different. You will need to do massive water changes everyday or even twice a day to keep your discus alive. Now it will take your tank longer to cycle because you were in a hurry to add the discus. Don't take the advice as fussing with you but take our advice as helping you and it will all work out.

  6. #6
    Registered Member briztoon's Avatar
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Daily water changes and vacuums will also be slowing or halting the cycle.

    By doing the water changes you are removing the waste that breaks down to produce ammonia, etc. So your basically starving the nitrifying bacteria.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    I did a successful fish less cycle without any additives, only ammonia. My timeframe was about 2 weeks for the ammonia to drop and another 2 weeks for the nitrite to drop.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    MazDiscus,

    I am curious to know if you started with a pristine tank, that is, without any bio-media from an established filter, or without SafeStart? Also, to what level were you dosing the ammonia?

    I would go ahead and add a double dose of Safe Start. It can't hurt, and it might accelerate the BB culture.

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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    This thread only proves my point that people on any fish forums refuse to acknowledge.. If you have an aquarium... And lets say its a mature aquarium thats been running for a year..... If you remove all the substrate and go barebottom and keep your canister or whatever filter your running.. its almost a 100% certaintity that you are going to have a HUGE Ammonia spike and a mini cycle.. The reason is because IMO most of the BB is in the substrate.. I do not care what people say.. this thread and my own experience fish keeping for 20 years has proven this over and over. You can run BB tanks sure thats obvious... but your "mature" filter that was running in the mature tank with gravel... Actually needs to build up more BB to account for the loss of the BB that was in your gravel..

    Its okay if no one agrees with me on this, but this thread just proved my point.. It will happen on a 2 week cycle like he had, or a mature 1-2 year old tank and filter... If you remove your gravel.. your filter thats mature will not be able to keep up with the bioload.. It will eventually once more BB grow in the filter though..

    Think of it like this... You have a HUGE LAND MASS right and a Equal mass of tunnles underneeth... You have people spread all over it and under it.. However.. You only have enough food to feed a certain amount of people.. Most of the people on the top get the food. And the people on the bottom get the leftovers.. This causes the population on the bottom to remain stagnant or in decline... The people on the top represent the gravel.. The people on the bottom represent the filter.. Then comes along some natural disaster and kills or removes everyone on top.. Thus giving the people on the bottom ALL THE FOOD.. and what happens ? The population explodes and is no longer stagnant. This is what happens with filters and substrates....

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Thank you for all the great information. I'll try to keep the ammonia near zero with WC, Prime and TSS until the tank gets cycled again. But I still have two questions, if Prime conditioner detoxifies the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate, what is the reason for water change? Don't you think using prime and not doing daily water changes will accelerate the process?

    After almost 4 weeks of having some ammonia in tank, I was expecting to see a spike in nitrite, but I am still reading zero. You guys think it is normal to take this long?

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemonic View Post
    MazDiscus,

    I am curious to know if you started with a pristine tank, that is, without any bio-media from an established filter, or without SafeStart? Also, to what level were you dosing the ammonia?

    I would go ahead and add a double dose of Safe Start. It can't hurt, and it might accelerate the BB culture.
    Yes I started with a pristine tank, I added a little bit of flake food for the first few days. And as soon as I saw the spike in ammonia (it took almost a week to reach to 4ppm) I added TSS, after another week or 10 days ammonia and nitrite went to zero, then I added my fish.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus3anatic View Post
    This thread only proves my point that people on any fish forums refuse to acknowledge.. If you have an aquarium... And lets say its a mature aquarium thats been running for a year..... If you remove all the substrate and go barebottom and keep your canister or whatever filter your running.. its almost a 100% certaintity that you are going to have a HUGE Ammonia spike and a mini cycle.. The reason is because IMO most of the BB is in the substrate.. I do not care what people say.. this thread and my own experience fish keeping for 20 years has proven this over and over. You can run BB tanks sure thats obvious... but your "mature" filter that was running in the mature tank with gravel... Actually needs to build up more BB to account for the loss of the BB that was in your gravel..

    Its okay if no one agrees with me on this, but this thread just proved my point.. It will happen on a 2 week cycle like he had, or a mature 1-2 year old tank and filter... If you remove your gravel.. your filter thats mature will not be able to keep up with the bioload.. It will eventually once more BB grow in the filter though..

    Think of it like this... You have a HUGE LAND MASS right and a Equal mass of tunnles underneeth... You have people spread all over it and under it.. However.. You only have enough food to feed a certain amount of people.. Most of the people on the top get the food. And the people on the bottom get the leftovers.. This causes the population on the bottom to remain stagnant or in decline... The people on the top represent the gravel.. The people on the bottom represent the filter.. Then comes along some natural disaster and kills or removes everyone on top.. Thus giving the people on the bottom ALL THE FOOD.. and what happens ? The population explodes and is no longer stagnant. This is what happens with filters and substrates....
    I 100% agree with you, gravel is where the majority of bacteria is

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by Filip View Post
    Don't worry.
    Just do 90% daily Wc with siphoning leftovers for a month or two and they will be fine.
    I know this is easier said than done , but it will fix your Discus for sure.

    P.s. 3 is not a good number for discus. You should have bought at least 6 of them.
    If you can buy 3 more but from the same breeder and same tank/batch,consider it as an option for a longterm success with discus.
    Good luck.
    Thanks will do that. Yes I wanted to get more discus from my local breeder, but I saw this ammonia spike and decided to wait until the tank gets cycled again.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus3anatic View Post
    This thread only proves my point that people on any fish forums refuse to acknowledge.. If you have an aquarium... And lets say its a mature aquarium thats been running for a year..... If you remove all the substrate and go barebottom and keep your canister or whatever filter your running.. its almost a 100% certaintity that you are going to have a HUGE Ammonia spike and a mini cycle.. The reason is because IMO most of the BB is in the substrate.. I do not care what people say.. this thread and my own experience fish keeping for 20 years has proven this over and over. You can run BB tanks sure thats obvious... but your "mature" filter that was running in the mature tank with gravel... Actually needs to build up more BB to account for the loss of the BB that was in your gravel..

    Its okay if no one agrees with me on this, but this thread just proved my point.. It will happen on a 2 week cycle like he had, or a mature 1-2 year old tank and filter... If you remove your gravel.. your filter thats mature will not be able to keep up with the bioload.. It will eventually once more BB grow in the filter though..

    Think of it like this... You have a HUGE LAND MASS right and a Equal mass of tunnles underneeth... You have people spread all over it and under it.. However.. You only have enough food to feed a certain amount of people.. Most of the people on the top get the food. And the people on the bottom get the leftovers.. This causes the population on the bottom to remain stagnant or in decline... The people on the top represent the gravel.. The people on the bottom represent the filter.. Then comes along some natural disaster and kills or removes everyone on top.. Thus giving the people on the bottom ALL THE FOOD.. and what happens ? The population explodes and is no longer stagnant. This is what happens with filters and substrates....
    I'm not going to agree with you on that one. I had gravel in my tank for about the first month then realized that bare bottom was a better way to go, for me. I pulled all the gravel out at once and never had any kind of spike. That tank has 2 Ehiem canisters that are rated for 160 gals. each and it's a 150 gal. maybe that's why I beat your 100% certainty.
    Last edited by MendoMan; 11-04-2015 at 12:27 AM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Nitrogen cycle won't start

    Quote Originally Posted by MazDiscus View Post
    Yes I started with a pristine tank, I added a little bit of flake food for the first few days. And as soon as I saw the spike in ammonia (it took almost a week to reach to 4ppm) I added TSS, after another week or 10 days ammonia and nitrite went to zero, then I added my fish.
    You never added ammonia?

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