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Thread: Playing With Water - Low Ph

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    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Playing With Water - Low Ph

    With the help of a friend who keeps altums I have totally changed how I prep the water for my altums. Instead of adding enough tap to get the TDS to about 30 to pure RO water I am doing things a little different.

    I start with RO water and add enough RO Right to get the TDS to 100. I then dose Discus Essentials to the volume of water I am changing. The RO Right has a slight effect on the ph and the Discus Essentials has none at all. The native waters of the altums is acidic and mineral rich. The minerals allow the young altums to grow the long beautiful fins they are known for. The 16 altums I have are currently in a 75 and I do a 50% WC on them every other day. I also maintain a ph monitor on the altum tank. Since I have started to do this the ph has slowly been dropping to the point where it is maintaining about 5.5.

    So I am trying some similar on the 230 Cuipeua tank. So tonight I prepared the water in a similar manner except targeted a TDS of about 50. Super curious to see how the fish response to this over time.
    Your discus are talking to you....are you listening


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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    So, by adding less of the RO Right, which has a little bit of KH, you are gradually lowering the PH, if I understand it. And making up the difference in the minerals with Discus Essentials.

    How low will you be able to go with PH if you went straight RO with Essentials or Equilibrium without any RO Right? I guess this would be the same PH as your aged RO alone.

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    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Nemonic, for the altums the RO right is used to bump the TDS (and add kH). I presume the RO Right contains a certain amount of minerals also. For the discus I used half the RO Right since I have been targeting a TDS of around 50 in that tank. My friend's bother used Discus Essentials on his domestic pair and it really helped with egg production and fry.

    My experience with altum tank shows that by targeting a TDS of 100 the ph will drop over time so could get a quicker drop in the ph by using less RO Right (hence less kH). I suspect all this is driven by water volume, bio-load etc.

    How low will you be able to go with PH if you went straight RO with Essentials or Equilibrium without any RO Right? I guess this would be the same PH as your aged RO alone.
    Obviously I do not know the answer to that. Straight RO would have little kH and I do not know if Discus Essentials adds to the kH. Yes, I could measure for this. My goal is to drop the pH below 7 but will need to closely monitor since I am using less RO Right.
    Pat
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Pat,

    I've started using Sera peat granules as part of the substrate for my Heckel tank. It's a BB tank with some granules. I have similar experience with using less RO right. My tank is in the low 4s as far as pH goes. I know it sounds low and I have not recalibrated my meter recently but I know the meter does work. pH bump close to 6 when I do WC. I have to be careful of big WC cause it went above 6.5 when I did too big of a change. I only replace with RO water now.
    Last edited by DiscusOnly; 11-10-2015 at 12:15 PM.

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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Van, I may consider that later depends on how this goes. You have any pictures of your heckels. They have to be loving that low ph.
    Pat
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    The last time I had Discus there was no RO in the hobby, or at least that was affordable, and there was a lot of hand-wringing about PH at the time. Now we know its more about TDS & conductivity. So the first thing I did when I got RO was measure how low the PH was and that would tell me whether I would need peat or something if I wanted to go lower in an attempt to induce spawning.

    My pure RO settles at 6.7 which is why I don't use RO Right for minerals, but instead use minerals that leave the PH alone.

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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Curious what your results are with the discus trace. I played with it for a while and did not notice any discernible difference in clutch sizes, fry development or fertility. The product is 99.5% water, and for the life of me I can't figure out why they don't make a powdered version (like safe vs prime).
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    I think it would be hard to get the right proportions of the elements if it was in powder form, with the denser ingredients settling. The bottle says to shake well before using. And most people won't measure small amounts correctly.

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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemonic View Post
    The last time I had Discus there was no RO in the hobby, or at least that was affordable, and there was a lot of hand-wringing about PH at the time. Now we know its more about TDS & conductivity. So the first thing I did when I got RO was measure how low the PH was and that would tell me whether I would need peat or something if I wanted to go lower in an attempt to induce spawning.

    My pure RO settles at 6.7 which is why I don't use RO Right for minerals, but instead use minerals that leave the PH alone.
    Nemonic, all I can tell you at this point is the combination of RO Right and Discus Essentials is supporting the fin development in my wild altums. Without it I see the tips of the fins break off which I do not want. Since having the ph slowly down is a unexpected plus I am using a similar approach with my wild discus in hopes of inducing a spawn.
    Pat
    Last edited by Second Hand Pat; 11-10-2015 at 10:00 PM.
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Curious what your results are with the discus trace. I played with it for a while and did not notice any discernible difference in clutch sizes, fry development or fertility. The product is 99.5% water, and for the life of me I can't figure out why they don't make a powdered version (like safe vs prime).
    Rick, isn't discus trace a different (but similar) product? I see that it is, Discus Trace is made by Seachem and Discus Essentials is made by Kent Marine.
    Pat
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    I wish you the best of luck with this and I'm sure the cuipeua tank will respond positively to this. But I hate tds meters and wish I knew what your conductivity reading is.
    Here is an explanation from a hydroponics web site on why different make tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.

    A quick answer to why we should use EC instead of TDS

    The debate over EC and TDS has been an ongoing issue for a long time. These two measurements are used to determine the strength of hydroponic solution. Although they are widely used they should only be used as a guideline and you should always follow mixing instructions on the label of you nutrient.
    EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and is measured in mS/cm or millisiemens per centimeter. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and is measured in PPM or parts per million. TDS is acquired by taking the EC value and performing a calculation to determine the TDS value. Because TDS is actually a calculation it is really only a guess at what the nutrient concentration is. On top of that, there are three different conversion factors to determine TDS and different manufacturers use different conversion factors. In other words you could test the same solution with two different meters and get two totally different readings. But the EC is read the same by all meters the only difference is the conversion factor.

    Some additional information for the geeks like us

    First of all lets talk about the differences and similarities between EC and TDS. We all know that they are both a measure of the amount of dissolved solids in your nutrient solution. This measurement is used by growers to get an idea of how much nutrient is present in the solution. By maintaining the correct level of nutrients in the solution your plants will achieve maximum results. This all sounds very important but there are some major differences between the different meter manufacturers. Some of you may have noticed that some calibration solutions that are marked to read at a certain TDS may actually read different from meter to meter. This is where the problem begins.
    Some of you may have not even heard of EC and others may have heard of it but do not even know what it is. Unfortunately many growers in the United States have become very accustomed to using the TDS scale while in most other countries, including Europe, they don't use anything but EC. The fact is that TDS is actually a result of a calculation from EC. The problem is lack of consistency among manufacturers when it comes to conversion factors. This is where it may get a little confusing. Most meter manufacturers in the hydroponics industry use one of two conversions. There is the 442 conversion (40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate, and 20% sodium chloride) which some say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The 442 conversion is approximately 700 x EC in millisiemens (mS). Then there is the NaCl conversion (sodium chloride) which others say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The NaCl conversion is approximately 500 x EC in millisiemens (mS). You can see where the confusion comes from because the same solution will read 2100 ppm on one meter and it will read 1500 ppm on the other. That is a difference of 600 ppm which as many of you know could be devastating. Both meters are functioning correctly they are just calculating the TDS using a different formula. So, if you do not calibrate your meter using the correct calibration solution your meter could give you a very inaccurate reading.
    The solution is simple, use EC. With EC, no conversion is required so all meters will read the same regardless of the manufacturer.
    Jerry Baer
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    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Alright Jerry, I will bite. Which meter would you suggest?
    Pat
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    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi View Post
    I wish you the best of luck with this and I'm sure the cuipeua tank will respond positively to this. But I hate tds meters and wish I knew what your conductivity reading is.
    Here is an explanation from a hydroponics web site on why different make tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.

    A quick answer to why we should use EC instead of TDS

    The debate over EC and TDS has been an ongoing issue for a long time. These two measurements are used to determine the strength of hydroponic solution. Although they are widely used they should only be used as a guideline and you should always follow mixing instructions on the label of you nutrient.
    EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and is measured in mS/cm or millisiemens per centimeter. TDS stands for Total Dissolved Solids and is measured in PPM or parts per million. TDS is acquired by taking the EC value and performing a calculation to determine the TDS value. Because TDS is actually a calculation it is really only a guess at what the nutrient concentration is. On top of that, there are three different conversion factors to determine TDS and different manufacturers use different conversion factors. In other words you could test the same solution with two different meters and get two totally different readings. But the EC is read the same by all meters the only difference is the conversion factor.

    Some additional information for the geeks like us

    First of all lets talk about the differences and similarities between EC and TDS. We all know that they are both a measure of the amount of dissolved solids in your nutrient solution. This measurement is used by growers to get an idea of how much nutrient is present in the solution. By maintaining the correct level of nutrients in the solution your plants will achieve maximum results. This all sounds very important but there are some major differences between the different meter manufacturers. Some of you may have noticed that some calibration solutions that are marked to read at a certain TDS may actually read different from meter to meter. This is where the problem begins.
    Some of you may have not even heard of EC and others may have heard of it but do not even know what it is. Unfortunately many growers in the United States have become very accustomed to using the TDS scale while in most other countries, including Europe, they don't use anything but EC. The fact is that TDS is actually a result of a calculation from EC. The problem is lack of consistency among manufacturers when it comes to conversion factors. This is where it may get a little confusing. Most meter manufacturers in the hydroponics industry use one of two conversions. There is the 442 conversion (40% sodium sulfate, 40% sodium bicarbonate, and 20% sodium chloride) which some say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The 442 conversion is approximately 700 x EC in millisiemens (mS). Then there is the NaCl conversion (sodium chloride) which others say is the closest thing to a hydroponic solution. The NaCl conversion is approximately 500 x EC in millisiemens (mS). You can see where the confusion comes from because the same solution will read 2100 ppm on one meter and it will read 1500 ppm on the other. That is a difference of 600 ppm which as many of you know could be devastating. Both meters are functioning correctly they are just calculating the TDS using a different formula. So, if you do not calibrate your meter using the correct calibration solution your meter could give you a very inaccurate reading.
    The solution is simple, use EC. With EC, no conversion is required so all meters will read the same regardless of the manufacturer.
    Well, this might very well be the case when mixing high EC/tds solutions for hydroponics, but for measuring discus tanks, a TDS meter is more than suffice.

    Your example of vastly different readings depending on the conversion factor used is only significant when taking high readings (greater that 1000), on the lower end of the spectrum (less than 100) the differences become insignificant. As long as the meter is consistent, and is calibrated every so often to check for accuracy, a TDS meter is a great tool (and remember, a TDS meter IS an EC meter).

    On your example, the EC would have been three milli siemens ergo 3 x 500 = 1500 tds or 3 x 700 = 2100 tds.
    With a mS reading of .1 the differnces fade away .1 x 500 = 50 tds or .1 x 700 = 70 tds
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 11-11-2015 at 01:59 AM.
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    If I know what conversion factor my TDS meter is using and want to express it in mS/cm, why not just apply the reciprocal? If I see conductivity given in mS/cm I just take it times 0.6 or thereabouts to convert to the more familiar TDS. In the range between 0 and 150 TDS isn't this close enough?

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