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Thread: Playing With Water - Low Ph

  1. #16
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by Nemonic View Post
    If I know what conversion factor my TDS meter is using and want to express it in mS/cm, why not just apply the reciprocal? If I see conductivity given in mS/cm I just take it times 0.6 or thereabouts to convert to the more familiar TDS. In the range between 0 and 150 TDS isn't this close enough?
    If you had a TDs meter and knew what conversion factor it was using you would just divide by 700 or 500 (using jerry's example) to get mS conductivity.

    The advantage of TDS is that your working with larger numbers as opposed to fractions of a decimal point.
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  2. #17
    Registered Member DiscusOnly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Pat,

    I use a separate Milwaukee EC and pH monitor. I have those older green color one but there is a new 3 in 1.

    http://www.amazon.com/Milwaukee-Port.../dp/B007Z4KGC6

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    I don't recommend one make meter over another, and a tds meter is a conductivity meter but they then multiply it by a .7 or a .5 to give a different reading. So I find it very strange they don't want to just give the real conductivity reading. Why give a fake reading? Like the article said different tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.
    Jerry Baer
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  4. #19
    Registered Member jawfish's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Interesting Pat, looking forward to see how your 230 will do

    Cheers,

    Fred

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    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Van and Jerry , thank you for the recommendations and information.

    Rick, also some good information.
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  6. #21
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by jawfish View Post
    Interesting Pat, looking forward to see how your 230 will do

    Cheers,

    Fred
    Thanks Fred, I moved the ph monitor to the 230 and it's currently sitting at 7.13. I suspect I need another WC using RO Right and DE to start the process. Low bio-load in a large body of water.
    Pat
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi View Post
    I don't recommend one make meter over another, and a tds meter is a conductivity meter but they then multiply it by a .7 or a .5 to give a different reading. So I find it very strange they don't want to just give the real conductivity reading. Why give a fake reading? Like the article said different tds meters give different readings, but all conductivity meters give the same reading.
    Any digital probe is typically measuring a resistance, or a voltage, and as such they all to some degree employ an IC chip that uses a "conversion" factor to display the pertinent information. Are you saying you would rather the digital thermometer display in ohms the resistance of the thermistor? I don't get your "fake" number analogy.
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  8. #23
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Conductivity is usually expressed as ‘EC’. EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and the unit measurement is milliSiemens per centimetre squared (Ms/cm2). This is frequently shortened to ‘millSiemens’. But you already know this.

    So here is the problem I have with the tds meter. So if the conductivity meter reads 100ec then the conductivity shows 100ec. So for the same price as a conductivity meter why should I buy a tds meter that reads 100ec (doesn't show it to me) but instead tells me the tds is 70, or a different make tds meter still reads the same 100ec (once again doesn't show it to me) but tells me the tds is 50. So that is my problem with the tds bs.

    So Pat once you lower the ph of your 230 wild cuperia tank and lower the conductivity you will see happier nicer looking wild discus. And don't be surprised if the red coloring shows better.
    Jerry Baer
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  9. #24
    Administrator and MVP Dec.2015 Second Hand Pat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    That is what I am hoping for Jerry and maybe some pairing behavior. Ph has not quite drifted below 7.0.
    Pat
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Jerry,

    Maybe one reason why the EC meters are not so popular is confusion with the units. I noticed above that we both screwed up on the units. The unit of EC that you multiply by .5 or .7 to get TDS is the microsiemen per centimeter (or μS/cm) and its over a distance of 1 centimeter. In my earlier post I couldn't find the greek letter MU anywhere on my keyboard so typed 'mS/cm' which Rick correctly read as milli-Seimens, so I was off by a factor of 1000 from what I meant.

    Anyway I just ordered an EC meter from HM Digital that reads in μS/cm. For soft water the numbers should be between 20 and 200 or so. I'm fine with the TDS meter but I like gadgets that measure so why not.

  11. #26
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Conductivity is usually expressed as ‘EC’. EC stands for Electrical Conductivity and the unit measurement is milliSiemens per centimetre squared (Ms/cm2). This is frequently shortened to ‘millSiemens’. But you already know this.
    Actually I think EC is usually given in microS/cm, I could be wrong, EC is not an official unit of measurement. There is a handy calculator here:

    http://www.lenntech.com/calculators/...tds-engels.htm
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 11-13-2015 at 02:12 AM.
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  12. #27
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    So here is the problem I have with the tds meter. So if the conductivity meter reads 100ec then the conductivity shows 100ec. So for the same price as a conductivity meter why should I buy a tds meter that reads 100ec (doesn't show it to me) but instead tells me the tds is 70, or a different make tds meter still reads the same 100ec (once again doesn't show it to me) but tells me the tds is 50. So that is my problem with the tds bs.
    or


    So here is the problem I have with the EC meter. So if the conductivity meter reads 100ec then the conductivity shows 100ec. But what good is that? I am after all trying to figure out how pure my water is? What do I care how much electrical current my water conducts between two probes over the distance of a centimeter? So for the same price as a TDS meter why should I buy a EC meter that reads 100ec but won't show me the TDS?, So that is my problem with the EC bs.

    ...But seriously, jerry I get the fact you prefer the EC meter over the TDS meter. But that is a PERSONAL preference. A TDS meter is not BS. A TDS meter IS an EC meter.

    Both meters are designed to measure one thing. Impurities in our water, known as dissolved solids. It is these dissolved solids that give water it's conductivity. So when we convert the conductivity to TDS we are in essence converting to a unit for which we are targeting.

    Know, with this in mind, each dissolved solid will impact conductivity in its own way, some much more than others. Dissolved solid "x" when 100 ppm is added to pure water might give me a conductivity reading of 156 microsiemens/cm while if I add 100 ppm dissolved solid "y" it may only yield a conductivity of 100 microsiemens/cm.

    Conversely Jerry, if you and Pat are both comparing water measurements with the same EC device, yet are on different water supply's, you could,, in theory have identical conductivity measurements, yet still have a much different water composition. (This is a problem shared with TDS meters)

    This is not even to mention that neither will detect dissolved organics at all, due to the fact they are generally non-conductive in nature.

    Now I get that your biggest issue is the fact that with TDS meters, there are three common conversion factors. Each will give a different reading when testing the same water, and this drives you nuts. But there is a reason for this, and it is quite simple.

    Different parts of the world typically have different dissolved solids (with different conductive properties) in their water. For that reason three different conversion factors were developed, to represent the composition of dissolved solids found in that region, and in an ideal world you pick the one that most accurately represents your area.

    HOWEVER, once you establish a base line (which would be the measurement of your tap water in most cases) any of the three different TDS meters or an EC meter will work just fine for our needs (read discus keeping). It's just that the TDS meter gives us an easier to understand scale (for most of us anyways).

    But, if we are not using our meter for discus keeping, but rather using it in a hydroponics setup instead (which is where most if not all your info is coming from), in which we are adding KNOWN combinations of salts to the water, and at much higher concentrations than we would ever even come close to keeping discus (ie TDS>1000), then yes, an EC meter makes more sense.
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 11-13-2015 at 03:01 AM.
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  13. #28
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    So I will have to say it's knit picking on my part on why I don't like tds meters. But you did say in your reply that a tds meter can be using one of three different conversions. So without the poster mentioning which conversion there meter is using it could be giving a different reading that someone else's meter using a different conversion.
    Jerry Baer
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  14. #29
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Quote Originally Posted by yogi View Post
    So I will have to say it's knit picking on my part on why I don't like tds meters. But you did say in your reply that a tds meter can be using one of three different conversions. So without the poster mentioning which conversion there meter is using it could be giving a different reading that someone else's meter using a different conversion.
    That is 100 % correct. It would help if the two knew what conversion their meter was using. Even then, unless the two posters are using the same source water, even if the they have identical meters, (EC or TDS), it's still not an apples to apples comparison.


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    Default Re: Playing With Water - Low Ph

    Some organic compounds do increase conductivity like fluvic acids,fatty acids, proteins, as they are dissolved in water as ions. Abatapo river is a typical blackwater river with low ph, low mineral content and high fluvic and tanin acid concentrations. The fish get their minerals trough actively pumping them with special chloride cells in their gills, which can be found in all blackwater species. Beside that, fulvic acids act like net catching all positive ions, ca and mg, due to week ionic bonds between their negative charge and positive charge of ca and mg ions. I think the standard should be ec, not tds because of the said conversion problems, as it is in science and european fishkeeping.

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