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Thread: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate test

  1. #31
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Luke,
    You mentioned that you add minerals
    I add RO water to replace evaporated water. Minerals are added to the water to control TDS.
    Can you go into more detail about what you added, and how you determined what you needed to add?

    Thanks,
    al
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  2. #32
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Luke,
    If you want to get the most info out of your experiment , my advice is not to cull yet. Grow them out longer. Not because the deformities may reverse but so you can document in better detail the nature of the deformities. You will be able to see them clearer....and photo document better. Additionally if you keep the full compliment of fry and raise them longer it will tell you just how much bioload your scrubber and system can handle.

    Experiments are seldom cut and dry...everything goes as planned.Often we learn from one set of problems and then try again. Deformities are a problem, but theres alot to be learned from them here IMO.

    Al
    Good point Al. I'm keeping the fry longer and will post a few more updates for anybody interested. You saved them just in time that day! haha


    - Separated fry from dad on 12-21
    - Started feeding them beefheart / seafood mix on 12-22. They will be fully transitioned to beefheart on 12-25.

    Here are pictures of a few fry on 12-23 (23 days after they hatched).
    2015-12-23 22.06.05.jpg2015-12-23 22.06.31.jpg2015-12-23 22.06.59.jpg


    I tested the calcium level and it still showed between 0-20 ppm even after adding minerals and calcium specifically to the water. The algae scrubber must be very KH hungry. This will need to be closely monitored. Although, it could be used as an advantage to get a higher hatch rate by reducing calcium/KH. I initially had counted over 280 wigglers with a great hatch rate but only ended up with about 50-60 fry probably due to the bacterial issue mentioned by Rick.

    I've ordered a bigger UV sterilizer for the system. We'll see if it helps on the next batch along with a few other minor adjustments.

  3. #33
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Nitrates still at 0 today. 0 additional water changes.
    KH = 3, PH = 7.1, TDS = 470

    Fry are vigorous, very hungry eaters and normal except for the dorsal and bottom fin deformities.




    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Luke,
    You mentioned that you add minerals

    Can you go into more detail about what you added, and how you determined what you needed to add?

    Thanks,
    al


    Happy to share. I am probably not the best expert in this area but will share what has worked for me. I put an algae scrubber on a tank a couple years ago and started to monitor some of these things but it wasn't until the recent "extreme water change" test that I've really started to notice how it effects water.


    My RO water starts with about 20 ppm TDS.

    I constantly monitor the tank TDS with a Milwaukee TDS monitor. They are awesome because it's always on. I add Seachem's discus trace as needed to adjust the tanks TDS. There are lots of products or even tap water that can be used to do this but Seachem sold me on their promise that "Discus Trace™ contains only those elements actually demonstrated to be required by fish." I figure if I'm going to add anything to the water it might as well be useful.

    One thing I've found interesting but am not sure it's 100% correlated is that when one of my discus starts acting shy, not eating as much or hides more in the back and then I dose some trace elements it's usually a problem solved. Maybe they were missing some trace element in the water?



    I regularly replace the depleted KH with Seachems Alkaline Buffer which increases KH. A level between 2-4 has worked for me.

    I add Seachem Flourish Iron on a very limited basis. If your Algae on the scrubber starts to turn Yellow it could be because of an iron deficiency or to much light.

    Monopotassium Phosphate is added to keep the phosphate levels between 1-2 ppm. It's surprising that I have to add this every once in a while but it can be a limiting nutrient. If you're Nitrate levels were at 0 with an algae scrubber but start to rise and you're not sure why, a good place to start is checking the phosphate levels. I use an API test kit to monitor

    Potassium is added every so often, I don't really monitor it.
    Sometimes I add a general plant fertilizer to give the algae scrubber a boost if needed. I use Yamato green and it works pretty well.

    A combination of these items can probably be used to push an algae scrubber to it's most efficient level.

    I recently started dosing Kent Marine liquid calcium. No thoughts to offer up on this yet other than it seems like a good idea to give the fish a higher calcium level than 0. I use an API test kit to monitor.

  4. #34
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Luke you may want to try boosting the calcium content of the food...

    Its possible that the calcium in the water cant be absorbed by the gills if theres something else competing with calcium for uptake...just a speculation but sodium may compete with it for ex. TDS can be misleading as it doesnt tell you what..just that something is there...

    ALSO.. algae are like plants...they take up minerals to grow...the use of the scrubber and Ro water may have depleted something critical for fry developement that you havent replenished....just a speculation.
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  5. #35
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    I agree. The best food possible would be even more important in these water conditions.

    This is my current beef heart recipe. What do you think? Improvements?

    Recipe
    Beef heart - 2 pounds
    Fish (saltwater) - 1 pound
    Shrimp - 1.5 pound, peeled
    Egg yolk - 4 egg yolks

    Astaxanthin - 1 tablespoon
    Lecithin - 2 tablespoons
    Garlic - 3 cloves
    Paprika - 1 tablespoon
    Spirulina - 2 tablespoon
    Vita Chem vitamins - 2 tablespoons
    Fish oil - 3600+ mg from pills
    Brewers yeast - 1 tablespoon
    Gluten powder - 1.5 tablespoons
    Seachem Discus Trace - 2 Tablespoons

    Liquid Calcium - 2 Tablespoons (just added, maybe this will help the calcium?)



    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    just a speculation but sodium may compete with it
    Would you mind explaining this part a little more? Not sure I got it.


    Merry Christmas!

  6. #36
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    wonder if anyone every pulverizes the egg shells and uses them in the mix, calcium and other trace minerals in there.

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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    As I understand it, there are two related processes where an interplay between sodium and calcium can occur.

    The gill epithelium is sometimes not very particular about which species of ion it picks up. This is how nitrite toxicity works. If the water contains a lot of nitrite ions, the gills diffuse them across the cell wall in place of chloride ions. So in this sense, chloride and nitrite are 'competing' for uptake. If you add some salt to the water, the chloride will outnumber the nitrite ions, thereby lessening the uptake of nitrite.

    There is also a much more complicated process of osmoregulation.

    There is a chemical balancing act that goes on with the permeability of mineral ions, which is why I have been tinkering with the mineral content of water.

    Here is some fun reading:

    ===============================

    "It is generally recognized that sodium, chloride, potassium and calcium are primarily responsible for osmoregulation in fishes, either by exerting osmotic effects (sodium and chloride) or by affecting uptake and excretion (calcium and potassium)."

    http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/RedDrumPhysiology.htm

    ==================================

    "Low calcium in the extracellular fluid would result in incomplete saturation of the calcium binding sites along the membrane pore, reducing the stimulus (force) necessary to dislodge them in the process of depolarization. If calcium concentrations are sufficiently low in the extracellular fluid, spontaneous sodium influx will occur (Frankenhaeuser and Hodgkin, 1957; Guyton, 1971)."

    "Environmental calcium concentrations also appear to affect a potassium mediated sodium exchange mechanism which is distinct from the passive processes discussed above. Sodium is actively transported against diffusional gradients producing sodium influx in fresh water and efflux in sea water. When environmental calcium is absent or reduced in concentration, the rates of influx or efflux are reduced (Bornancin et al., 1972; Fleming et al., 1974; Eddy, 1975; Isaia and Masoni, 1976; Norton et al., 1977; Pic and Maetz, 1981)."

    http://www2.ca.uky.edu/wkrec/Membran...ogyCalcium.htm

  8. #38
    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    LOL John..
    So out of 300 fry you cull about 15? Those are some pretty good numbers ,even by Texas Standards!

    Al
    For the type of problem that he is having....yes. I normally sell my fish at between 1 and 3 inches. If I keep the fish langer I will cull some more for slow growth/shape and such.

    -john
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    SOS Crew Texas

  9. #39
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Quote Originally Posted by DJW View Post

    Here is some fun reading:

    Interesting read, thanks for sharing.

  10. #40
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    12-28-2015, 28 day fry update:


    Water changed since August 2015: About 50%

    Nitrates: between 0-5 ppm
    Phosphate: 0.5 ppm
    TDS: 480
    PH: 7.1
    Calcium: between 0-20 ppm (I continue to add small amounts)
    Temperature: 82

    I tried to pull out average fry for measuring
    2015-12-29 10.16.32.jpg2015-12-29 10.16.02.jpg2015-12-29 10.12.46.jpg2015-12-29 10.20.09.jpg2015-12-29 10.19.25.jpg2015-12-29 10.19.47.jpg2015-12-29 10.20.34.jpg

    I'm planning on keeping the fry for another week or two before trying again for a better batch.



    Adult fish in connected display tank update:
    The only thing I've noticed slightly different in the behavior of the adult fish is one of my larger males becoming more and more shy over the past few weeks(you just know your fish right?). After increasing the calcium and other minerals in the tank he began to swim more and more at the front of the tank and eat more aggressively. Not a huge difference, but noticeable. It makes me wonder if there is any correlation between his behavior and the mineral content of the tank. He is back to his "normal" front of tank self. All of the other discus continue to behave the same.

    Larger male:
    2015-12-29 11.07.39.jpg
    (He got a few scuffs yesterday quarreling with a pair that laid eggs. 4 pairs continue to lay eggs in the display tank including this male and another female.)

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Couple things that might not have been mentioned;

    -Methylene blue has been well documented to cause problems in fry (swim bladder and deformities);
    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...Methylene-Blue

    I believe the exposure times that many people use are too long. In aquaculture we use Ovadine (buffered Iodine) as a dip to disinfect eggs (~15-20 min). I've never tried this with discus (cichlids), but have successfully used it with Cyprinids (Barbs, rasboras, etc). Though, apparently there is a very small safety margin with iodine (Chambel, João, et al. "Hydrogen peroxide, iodine solution and methylene solution highly enhance the hatching rate of freshwater ornamental fish species." Aquaculture International 22.6 (2014): 1743-1751.).

    Interestingly, MB doesn't kill all bacteria (Sipos, Aaron J., and Hidetoshi Urakawa. "Differential responses of nitrifying archaea and bacteria to methylene blue toxicity." Letters in applied microbiology (2015).). Also, interesting is the numbers of species of bacteria that can be found on eggs, with newer PCR techiniques (Efficacy of Iodine for Disinfection of Lake Sturgeon Eggs from the St. Lawrence River, New York Marc Chalupnicki , Dawn Dittman , Clifford E. Starliper , Deborah D. Iwanowicz North American Journal of Aquaculture Vol. 77, Iss. 1, 2015)

    - You can add bananas to your beef heart recipe for potassium and magnesium. These nutrients might be to low for the fry with the algae competing for the resources.

    Cheers,
    DC

    Abstracts from above;

    Abstracts:
    Hydrogen peroxide, iodine solution and methylene solution highly enhance the hatching rate of freshwater ornamental fish species. João Chambel , Ricardo Costa, Mónica Gomes, Susana Mendes, Teresa Baptista, Rui Pedrosa;
    The aim of this study was to evaluate the effect of hydrogen peroxide, iodine solution (PVP) and methylene blue on eggs disinfection of three ornamental fish species, Danio rerio, Pterophyllum scalare and Gymnocorymbus ternetzi. The main idea was to create conditions to enhance the hatching rates. Eggs of each species were exposed to different concentrations of hydrogen peroxide (5, 10, 15 and 25 mg/L), PVP (0.25, 0.5, 0.75 and 1 mg/L) and methylene blue (0.5 1, 2 and 3 mg/L). The optimal doses ranged between species and chemicals: for G. ternetzi, the concentrations that high enhanced the hatching rate were 1 mg/L for the PVP treatment, 25 mg/L for the hydrogen peroxide treatment and 3 mg/L for methylene blue treatment; for P. scalare, the best results were achieved with 25 mg/L for hydrogen peroxide treatment and 3 mg/L for methylene blue treatment. By contrast, for all the different chemical did not increased the D. rerio hatching rate. Results showed that hydrogen peroxide and methylene blue are the most versatile, effective and safe to use in these species. On the other hand, PVP can be used but with many precautions due to very low safety margin. Results clearly show that the optimal concentration of chemicals for eggs disinfection is fish species dependent and it is completely wrong to extrapolate concentrations between different chemicals and fish species. Our study suggests that P. scalare can be used as a model in study of effectiveness of new chemicals with potential to disinfect water and increase hatching rates.


    Differential responses of nitrifying archaea and bacteria to methylene blue toxicity. Aaron J. Sipos and Hidetoshi Urakawa;
    Methylene blue, a heterocyclic aromatic chemical compound used to treat fish diseases in the ornamental fish aquaculture industry, is believed to impair nitrification as a side effect. However, very little is known about the toxicity of methylene blue to nitrifying microorganisms. Here, we report the susceptibility of six bacterial and one archaeal ammonia-oxidizing microorganisms to methylene blue within the range of 10 ppb to 10 ppm. Remarkably high susceptibility was observed in the archaeal species Nitrosopumilus maritimus compared to the bacterial species. Ammonia oxidation by Nitrosopumilus maritimus was inhibited 65% by 10 ppb of methylene blue. Of the bacterial species examined, Nitrosococcus oceani was the most resistant to methylene blue toxicity. For similar inhibition of Nitrosococcus oceani (75% inhibition), one thousand times more methylene blue (10 ppm) was needed. The examination of single cell viability on Nitrosomonas marina demonstrated that methylene blue is lethal to the cells rather than reducing their single cell ammonia oxidation activity. The level of susceptibility to methylene blue was related to the cell volume, intracytoplasmic membrane arrangement and the evolutionary lineage of nitrifying microorganisms. Our findings are relevant for effectively using methylene blue in various aquaculture settings by helping minimize its impact on nitrifiers during the treatment of fish diseases with methylene blue. In the future, resistant nitrifiers such as Nitrosococcus oceani may be purposely added to aquaculture systems to maintain nitrification activity during treatments with methylene blue.

  12. #42
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Quote Originally Posted by DC Discus View Post

    -Methylene blue has been well documented to cause problems in fry (swim bladder and deformities);
    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...Methylene-Blue

    Could be a contributing factor, I left the eggs in a full concentration of Methylene blue until after they hatched. I'll have to look into this more. Maybe on the next batch I'll just keep them in it for the first few hours and see how that goes.

  13. #43
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    12-1-2016 – 1 month update:

    WaterChanges since August 2015
    - 50% August – November 2015
    - 5% - December 2015

    Nitrates: 0-5 ppm
    KH: 2
    Calcium: 0-20 ppm
    TDS: 450
    CO2 injected reduces PH by about 0.2 From 7.3 to 7.1 ph


    Here are some videos and pictures of the fry just after gathering them into a container:

    28 fry with severe dorsal fin deformity
    Video: https://youtu.be/imdU0Au7RSY
    2016-01-01 18.42.47.jpg


    33 fry with minor / moderate dorsal fin deformity. The top front dorsal fin is just a little jagged.
    Video: https://youtu.be/gA7fuWEIODI
    2016-01-01 18.45.44.jpg2016-01-01 18.46.23.jpg


    These are a little on the larger average size fry pulled for measuring:
    2016-01-01 18.43.23.jpg2016-01-01 18.44.08.jpg2016-01-01 18.44.39.jpg


    The Red Dragon fry are smaller than the turquoise fry on average.


    Let me know if you would like any more pics of the fry. Their tank will be reclaimed as a breeding tank within the next day or two.

    If anybody has any Methylene Blue tips, I'm happy to hear them.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Not much to say, but I'm still watching with interest!

  15. #45
    Registered Member Luke in Phoenix's Avatar
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    Default Re: Fry grow out test with an algae scrubber. Water change health and growth rate te

    Quote Originally Posted by dprais1 View Post
    In my experience water lettuce does well when there is very little surface agitation. not sure how your sump is designed but mine thrived with in my sump with nothing but a cfl bulb for light when I placed it after a piece of poret foam. the surface was calm but there was still plenty of flow in the tank.
    I've been thinking about sump designs and you're probably right on this. My sump has a ton of surface agitation. Maybe I'll try the water lettuce again elsewhere in the system...

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