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Thread: Blackwater Mineral Mix

  1. #16
    Moderator Team LizStreithorst's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    I'm surprised at that myself. I'd be inclined to cut the sodium in half. Joe was in importer way back when. The only thing he was any good for IMO was this mineral mix.
    Mama Bear

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...RO-Water/page3

    There is a similar thread at the URL above, that has both Seachem replenish and, and the Seachem Equilibrium formulas in it and recipes for mixing it and several sources for the chemicals needed.

    Al Light

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Al, its funny that you linked that ... that was the thread that got me started on this. I read through all the old threads that had mineral recipes, and the motivation was mostly to save money by trying to duplicate the ingredients in commercially available additives. My aim here was different, it was to base the ingredients on the actual mineral content of South American rivers.

    Here is a price comparison (minus the trace minerals, Discus Trace or Essentials):

    This recipe: $5.17 per pound
    RO Right: $11.00 per lb
    Equilibrium: $8.50 per lb

    One pound makes 1600 gallons at TDS 65.

    I should include links for the two ingredients that can be hard to locate.

    Calcium Chloride:

    http://www.amazon.com/Midwest-Homebr...ide+food+grade

    Gypsum (calcium sulphate). It was on Amazon earlier, but brewing suppliers have it:

    http://labelpeelers.com/gypsum-1-lb/...FQEJaQodKWYE6A

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Fosters and Smith has 38 pounds of Calcium Chloride for less than 50$ with free shipping!

    Al

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    You could save $282 by buying the calcium chloride in bulk from F and S.
    Dan, great thread, by the way. Thanks very much for posting this info.
    Looks like a great price on the calcium sulfate. Interestingly, I had been mixing half and half calcium chloride and calcium sulfate because I figured there was too much chloride if it all was calcium chloride.

    Al

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Al, in Park City where the elevation is 7000 feet, you have about a 24% oxygen saturation deficit in the water. Do you see any problems as a result, or do you mitigate it in some way? I'm only at 3000 feet where O2 equilibrium is 10% less than at sea-level and have thought about dosing H2O2, but I haven't figured out a good rate. I will probably need an expensive oxygen meter to experiment with it.

    Here is an O2sat calculator. Don't forget to set salinity to zero:

    https://www.hamzasreef.com/Contents/...mumO2Level.php

    For dissolved oxygen at various points along the Amazon River, here is an old book:

    https://books.google.com/books?id=ya...0river&f=false

    I spent some time in Park City doing oil exploration during the first energy boom. That was before it became a hot spot for tourism. Its a beautiful area.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    No problems with the fish as far a I can tell. The water is very good, and that is probably more important. I do better with breeding Discus here than I ever did at 700 feet in Chapel Hill, NC where I lived for 30 years. I do as well or better than other Discus owners who live in Salt Lake at 4,000 feet.

    I would think that the warm temperature of the water that discus like would be a bigger factor than the air pressure in reducing the O2 sats. It is in the trout streams around here. Trout need quite cold water because they need very high sats. The trout love the high altitude lakes in the mountains here. They do very well at 10-11,000 feet. The biggest problem for them in the high lakes is the very short time the lake are thawed (very little food available when frozen over), and the winter kill because of lack of O2 caused by no water exposure to air. The other problem is the same as the lakes in the Adirondacks where acidification is occurring because of the coal fired power plants here that refuse to put in scrubbers to keep the sulfur and mercury down (can't eat many of the trout from the lakes without poisoning your self).

    Personally I like the high altitude. Keeps us out of the smog in Salt Lake, and we have nice warm days up here when the inversions keep it cold, damp and smoggy in Salt Lake.

    The town is as nice as ever, and although there has been more construction and development than I would like to see, we still have a large elk herd in our neighborhood, as well as tons of mule deer and many moose.

    We're getting some good moisture this year, although not enough is snow. Too warm, and has been for the past 5 years.

  8. #23
    Registered Member Len's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Quote Originally Posted by DJW View Post
    I just use a kitchen scale that measures in grams.

    As I understand it, KH (or alkalinity) is a measure of carbonate and bicarbonate anions. A salt like Calcium Chloride raises GH while having little or no effect on KH at the concentrations used in freshwater.

    If I wanted this recipe to contain some buffer, I would use sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) in place of some of the NaCl.


    I just noticed this and wanted to point out that sodium bicarbonate is a horrible pH buffer. Yes, it will raise your pH, but it is not stable and the pH will drop again if your kH (carbonate harness) is too low. A better choice IF you really need to buffer pH / kH is calcium carbonate. I emphasize IF, because in most cases you don't need to do all of that messing around with water parameters -- you just need to keep it consistently clean.


    Len

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    I have never used or needed buffer of any kind and I use 100% RO. The KH is less than 1 degree. Low stocking and frequent water changes is all that is necessary for a stable pH in my case. Its good that you point out the shortcomings of baking soda... some people use a Seachem product called Stability which has been found to contain mostly baking soda.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Quote Originally Posted by Len View Post
    I just noticed this and wanted to point out that sodium bicarbonate is a horrible pH buffer. Yes, it will raise your pH, but it is not stable and the pH will drop again if your kH (carbonate harness) is too low. A better choice IF you really need to buffer pH / kH is calcium carbonate. I emphasize IF, because in most cases you don't need to do all of that messing around with water parameters -- you just need to keep it consistently clean.
    You have me wondering. Sodium bicarbonate IS carbonate hardness. Why is it not a good buffer?

    "Carbonate hardness (KH) is the measure of bicarbonate (HCO3-) and
    carbonate (CO3--) ions in the water. In freshwater aquariums of
    neutral pH, bicarbonate ions predominate and in saltwater aquariums,
    carbonate ions begin to play a role...

    Carbonate hardness can be easily increased by adding sodium
    bicarbonate. Calcium carbonate will increase both KH and GH in equal
    parts."

    http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/khgh.html

  11. #26
    Registered Member Len's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    It is not a good buffer because it doesn't keep the carbonate hardness stable whereas calcium carbonate or even sodium carbonate will. What you can see is a raise in pH and then fairly quickly start to drop. Your quote pretty much says it all kH is the measure of bicarbonate AND carbonate ions. Bicarobonate alone wont keep a stable kH and in turn will not keep a stable pH which is the ultimate goal.

    If you can still find a cached copy of Rexgrigg.com he had excellent details on this very topic. Unfortunately he stopped maintaining the site and let it go
    Last edited by Len; 03-26-2016 at 07:31 PM.


    Len

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Here is a good article on the subject:

    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/5/chemistry

    Where I found a couple of interesting facts:

    The carbonate ion contributes twice as much alkalinity as bicarbonate, so that 2 grams of bicarbonate has an equivalent alkalinity to 1 gram of carbonate.

    Also, a comparison of the two shows that adding bicarbonate drives dissolved CO2 from the water. Its easy to see why it gets a bad rap in the planted tank world.

    If I'm choosing between sodium and calcium, I will use calcium. It looks like calcium carbonate would be better, as you have said. TUMS without the color and flavor.

  13. #28
    Registered Member Len's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    TUMS would be one option lol. I got the pharmacist to order me a container (about a litre or so). It cost 15.00, but I haven't used it in quite some time as until recently I hadn't kept a planted tank for several years.


    Len

  14. #29
    Registered Member kimberly's Avatar
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    What TDS meeter do you recommend using? I am new to breeding.
    Be kind.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Blackwater Mineral Mix

    Quote Originally Posted by kimberly View Post
    What TDS meeter do you recommend using? I am new to breeding.
    This is the one I have. It compensates for temperature differences, which is good because temp has a huge effect on TDS measurement.

    https://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TD.../dp/B000VTQM70

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