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Thread: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

  1. #16
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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan View Post
    Hi Riz,

    Welcome aboard!

    I'll just jump right in with the fish. IMO they are already a little behind in growth, and some don't have the best shape. That's obviously not your fault as you just got them. The large eye size, especially on the first ones (red pigeons, whatever trade name you give them) are an indicator that they've fallen behind. I have seen miracles on Simply in the past -- people have bought horribly runted fish from the LFS and somehow managed to get them to grow and look decent as adults. It just depends on how far their growth has fallen behind. At some point they do reach a "point of no return" where no amount of good food or water changes will help them. Only time will tell if that's the case for you.

    In terms of shape, the blues and the turquoise fish look the best IMO. The turk is actually pretty round, and though the blues have a bit of a pointy face (usually not a desirable factor in discus), a lot of the blue diamond types do carry that shape as youngsters. It's not uncommon for them to be a bit pointy. If you look closely at the tails of the blues, you'll see a black bar between the caudal peduncle and the caudal fin -- this bar would not be present in high quality blue diamonds. This leads me to believe that they're probably a BD cross or throwback of some sort.

    As you've probably read by now, growing out young discus is highly dependent on keeping their water very clean. This is usually harder in a display tank with substrate and plants. That's not to say that it can't be done, but it's certainly more work for you. Our recommendation here has always been bare bottom grow out tanks, and that's for one very simple reason -- we know it works. It's sort of our way of helping people get onto the right path with discus. It's a proven method that almost always ensures success. It's not the only way, and people are free to throw that advice out the window, but it's the easiest way to get your feet wet with discus and get comfortable with their needs and their quirks.

    My suggestion is to try your hand at these and see how they do for you. If things go well, great. If they don't, you can always make adjustments and try again. Everyone here has had a set of "starter" discus. Once you feel comfortable with them and you learn what to look for in terms of color, shape, and overall health, you can always look for higher quality fish at a later date.

    I will say that starting with larger fish (5"+) in a display tank tends to make life much easier, but of course they will cost you a lot more in the beginning.

    At any rate, enjoy your first venture with discus. I hope you find them enjoyable. Most of us are here because we got bit by the "discus bug" at some point and never looked back.
    Hi Ryan and thank you for the reply. One of the signs of a great forum for me is how the existing members give thoughtful and considerate answers to even a newbie's most foolish questions and this certainly has been the case so far.

    I have this crazy idea that just came up after reading you reply. My sump filter underneath the main tank where the discus are has 3 chambers, and the last chamber is empty except for the intake pump that goes to the main tank. That last chamber is about 40x40x40 cm so most of the time it holds around 50 litres of water give or take. My crazy idea is to transfer all 6 discus there (and also add some hardy floating plants for nutrient soak and cover), then transfer them back to the main tank once they gained a bit more bulk. Of course the concern is that 50 litres for 6 fish sounds a bit cramped, but my main consideration is that under there I have essentially a BB tank so I can at least see and siphon the waste out, and also they won't have competition during feeding time from the boisterous rainbowfish so I can ration the amount of food better.

    Good idea? Bad idea? "What-the-hell-are-you-thinking" idea?

  2. #17
    Registered Member SNap0283's Avatar
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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    That wouldn't help. The problem is the trapped debris in the substrate is exposed to the water the discus are living in. Since the sump is the same water it wouldn't help. Now after everyone has beat you down on the substrate let me provide you some hope.

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...sh-anniversary!!

    Now a few differences, those fish are probably 4-6 months older than yours when introduced to a tank with substrate these few months are the most important time. But it shows you can grow out sub adults into very nice fish but it is a LOT of work. With 2-3" fish it simply is not possible. If you can I would suggest a BB tank AT LEAST 3-4 months if you must rush things. Then again if you are OK with having not perfectly huge fish and you are meticulous in your cleaning you can keep them healthy and growing well enough in your tank. Take all of our postings as a warning of how extremely difficult it can be. But it can be done.

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Quote Originally Posted by SNap0283 View Post
    That wouldn't help. The problem is the trapped debris in the substrate is exposed to the water the discus are living in. Since the sump is the same water it wouldn't help. Now after everyone has beat you down on the substrate let me provide you some hope.

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...sh-anniversary!!

    Now a few differences, those fish are probably 4-6 months older than yours when introduced to a tank with substrate these few months are the most important time. But it shows you can grow out sub adults into very nice fish but it is a LOT of work. With 2-3" fish it simply is not possible. If you can I would suggest a BB tank AT LEAST 3-4 months if you must rush things. Then again if you are OK with having not perfectly huge fish and you are meticulous in your cleaning you can keep them healthy and growing well enough in your tank. Take all of our postings as a warning of how extremely difficult it can be. But it can be done.
    Thanks for the link Snap. Wonderful to see progression pictures from sub-adult to adult in that thread. Not expecting mine to grow as well as the ones in the link did, mine being already slightly stunted and all.

    I think I might clear out some my reasoning behind my idea of moving them to the sump. As active as the discus are right now, during feeding time they are still competing with the speedier and gluttonous rainbowfish. They are by no means famished, but they could definitely eat more if they are allowed to. So that's one reason : for the discus to have a bit of peace feeding and for me to properly ration out the food.

    The second reason is that being in the sump tank the discus waste (poop) would settle in the BB sump tank instead going into the substrate in the main tank, and much easier for me to remove mechanically with a hose. Not that I'm too concerned if a bit gets sucked up by the pump and into the tank because my substrate is being maintained by a posse of cleaners that breaks down larger waste particles pretty efficiently, and the smaller particles would be further broken down by the snail army, ready for consumption for the plants. That's why thinking of having water lettuce in the sump also to further suck up the added nutrients.

    Fully aware that the water in the sump is totally the same as the main tank. It's just being in the sump more of the discus needs are more controlled than in the main tank. Main concern is still the size of the sump chamber.

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Ok I've done something that should do better to ensure proper feeding of the discus rather than putting them in the sump : moved 6 of the of the 10 rainbowfish into the koi pond until the discus are bigger.

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Hi Juku Eja.
    Don't get your hopes up and expectations too high.
    Growing youngs for the first time in full bottom planted tank it's most likely doomed to failure.
    It's not just size here in question. They are most likely to get sick,thinned,encounter Hex,Hith,have poor appetite, show no activity and vitality etc.
    In general you wont be able to see their normal healthy and happy behaviour,but you'll see fish hanging in corners.

    You can help things out a bit, with some minor planting changes,switching to Sand bottom and big Wcs.
    and don't rely on your big sump that much.
    It's not all about nitrates in clean water.Wcs are crucial, filtration is supplemental when it comes to Discus.

    Sorry if I've been too harsh, but as a sworn planted enthusiast I've already been there.
    Good luck.

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Hi Filip, thanks for the heads up.
    After reading so much of the good, the bad, the ugly and even a couple very long and heated threads in the archives about this tetchy subject, my expectations are realistic. Realistic meaning that I really think having 6 young discus being fed a varied diet in an established 480-litre planted tank using large sump filter, doing 50% WC weekly and employing an extensive clean up crew should be able to keep the water quality in good check, and that should result in at the very least healthy, active, reasonably well-fed fish that should eventually grow well enough while most likely not to jumbo large sizes, but decent enough sizes that reflects the level of care they've received.

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Juku Eja View Post
    Hi Filip, thanks for the heads up.
    After reading so much of the good, the bad, the ugly and even a couple very long and heated threads in the archives about this tetchy subject, my expectations are realistic. Realistic meaning that I really think having 6 young discus being fed a varied diet in an established 480-litre planted tank using large sump filter, doing 50% WC weekly and employing an extensive clean up crew should be able to keep the water quality in good check, and that should result in at the very least healthy, active, reasonably well-fed fish that should eventually grow well enough while most likely not to jumbo large sizes, but decent enough sizes that reflects the level of care they've received.
    Good luck with this but in my opinion you are wrong. Your water will not stay clean enough for your fish to reach their potential. They may live and they may even grow some but they will never be what they could have been if they were raised in a better situation. I see folks come in here all of the time and try this. It normally works well for a few months and then they crash. Most post about how great it is going the first few months but few ever post about the crash,

    -john
    Please check out http://forum.discusnada.org/

    SOS Crew Texas

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Quote Originally Posted by John_Nicholson View Post
    Good luck with this but in my opinion you are wrong. Your water will not stay clean enough for your fish to reach their potential. They may live and they may even grow some but they will never be what they could have been if they were raised in a better situation. I see folks come in here all of the time and try this. It normally works well for a few months and then they crash. Most post about how great it is going the first few months but few ever post about the crash,

    -john
    I know you aren't concerned about growing them to their potential, but John also mentions the normal "crash" in this kind of situation. I've been there, crashed, and wished that I had listened in the first place. You have a chance to avoid this.

    Thats said, if you're less concerned about your new discus than the rest of your tank as a whole (which I think is the case) then you're on the path that's best for you. It can be done - you can have some discus in a planted tank, it takes some extra care, but be prepared for casualties. Good luck, I wish you the best! You have a great tank.
    .................................................. .........................

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Hi John and Eric,
    Again many thanks for the concern. Shows that this forum is indeed discus first and foremost, which is exactly what it should be. Compromise is a given for me trying to grow young discus in a planted tank, and hopefully that compromise will show observable result in the future.
    In this post I will also pledge that I will regularly post updates, good and bad, in the coming months and if it does end in a "crash", I will post that too, pictures and all.

    Btw, what is the "crash" exactly?

  10. #25
    Registered Member John_Nicholson's Avatar
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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    People will often see the fish get sick "all of a sudden". In reality they have been getting sick from the poor water conditions for a long time but the owners don't see it until it is too late to really do much about it.

    -john
    Please check out http://forum.discusnada.org/

    SOS Crew Texas

  11. #26
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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Quote Originally Posted by Juku Eja View Post
    Hi John and Eric,
    Again many thanks for the concern. Shows that this forum is indeed discus first and foremost, which is exactly what it should be. Compromise is a given for me trying to grow young discus in a planted tank, and hopefully that compromise will show observable result in the future.
    In this post I will also pledge that I will regularly post updates, good and bad, in the coming months and if it does end in a "crash", I will post that too, pictures and all.

    Btw, what is the "crash" exactly?
    Please do so Juku . Share your experiences with others , no matter good or bad .

    My crash (as John describe it) happend after 3 years of keeping them.
    Some were 1 , some were 2 some were 3 years old.
    They got loss of balance - propably a swim bladder disease (head standing , tail standing) out of the blue as John said above and they all died in just 5 days.
    But in this period of 3 years i had multiple HEX, HITH, HLLE, velvet, cotton eye problems and i spend a great deal of time and energy treating them in QT and in a display tank.

    So thats why i think your are also kinda doomed here with your mission .
    Here is a pic of the tank and fish , as a loving memory

    Diskusi 240l..jpgfront (4).JPG1.JPG

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Wow Filip that is a wonderful looking tank with wonderful looking discus!

    If you don't mind can you tell us a bit of a background about the tank? Like how many litres was it, how big were the fish when you first got them, what was your feeding and maintenance regime, what do you think caused the crash, etc? Or maybe you can just post a link to a thread if it's already documented here in the forum?

  13. #28
    Homesteader Filip's Avatar
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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Thanks Juku Eja.
    Here is a link from the same 65 G(260 l.) tank with current situation and spec's.
    I don't have this previous setup documented here on SD forum.

    http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ed-discus-tank

    Wcs were ussualy once or twice a week 80% Wc.
    Feeding were 2 times a day big amount of beefheart,artemia,tetra discus,market store shrimps.
    They started from 2.5 Inch and grew to 4-5 inch range.
    And some of them were already bought as a grown 5 -6 inchers from friends.

    The crash as stated above is from constant poor water quality. They simply can't put up with it and go sick out of blue and don't respond to treatment and meds. and eventually die.

    My point is that this kind of planted tank is only trouble when it comes to raising young discus.
    No matter how appealing It looks to us, its just isn't doable.

  14. #29
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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    one thing no one has pointed out yet is the amount of black beard algae you have growing. While I do agree with everyone on how you have somewhat set yourself up for failure with the discus, I do want to add that the black beard algae will eventually take over and absorb all nutrients intended for your plants if you don't get a hold of it now. its a stubborn algae but usually lowering your lighting or shortening your light period can help a lot more than you think. using H202 can also help in spot killing it. when it turns red its dying so that's what you want to see. might want to do some research on bba (black beard algae) while you are researching everything else just to get a better grasp on what can help with it. just a heads up

    all in all you have a beautiful planted tank, perfect for rainbows, tetras, barbs and tons of other tropical fish, just not well suited for juvenile discus. good luck and keep up the good work on the forum asking and taking the advice of others.
    ~JACKLYN~

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    Default Re: New discus owner with lots of discus questions :D

    Quote Originally Posted by jmf3460 View Post
    one thing no one has pointed out yet is the amount of black beard algae you have growing. While I do agree with everyone on how you have somewhat set yourself up for failure with the discus, I do want to add that the black beard algae will eventually take over and absorb all nutrients intended for your plants if you don't get a hold of it now. its a stubborn algae but usually lowering your lighting or shortening your light period can help a lot more than you think. using H202 can also help in spot killing it. when it turns red its dying so that's what you want to see. might want to do some research on bba (black beard algae) while you are researching everything else just to get a better grasp on what can help with it. just a heads up

    all in all you have a beautiful planted tank, perfect for rainbows, tetras, barbs and tons of other tropical fish, just not well suited for juvenile discus. good luck and keep up the good work on the forum asking and taking the advice of others.
    The BBA has until recently largely confined itself to the DW, however I'm starting to see clumps of it growing on the substrate which is annoying. Good point on the BBA absorbing nutrients instead of the plants. Think it's time to go for it with the H2O2.

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