Cross result of Snow White male with Blue Diamond female. See photos.

[Rod]

I am still not convinced that the BD gene is completely recessive in the Mendel sense. I know I have several cross's that carry the BD gene in the heterogenous form that exhibit homogenous BD poop.


-Rick

I'll just leave this comment here for a minute, and come back to it later on as i have to go to work now.

Probably the gene for mega poops is on the same chromosome as for blue diamonds. Some sort of linkage is involved, but sometimes there are occasional specimens where that link could be broken due to a recombination of the way the alleles interact in that particular region of chromosome. These recombinants could produce novel results like this!

[nc0gnet0]

I'll just leave this comment here for a minute, and come back to it later on as i have to go to work now.

Probably the gene for mega poops is on the same chromosome as for blue diamonds. Some sort of linkage is involved, but sometimes there are occasional specimens where that link could be broken due to a recombination of the way the alleles interact in that particular region of chromosome. These recombinants could produce novel results like this!

Speculation that the BD gene is a mutation of more than one allele is intriguing. I await you reply but in the mean time I want you to consider the blue faced browns we are seeing ( I Have made some of these myself het-bd). I also have some interesting three-five bar fish that were the result of a Stendker BD x Wantanbe turq. The F2's are really getting interesting as well.

[brewmaster15]

HI Rod!
Been awhile my friend...Hope you've been well!I don't mind at all! And I am sure Tony doesnt either! I've a few ideas on breeding these when they grow out.....Ill be sure to keep your comments in mind! Thanks.
Al

Hi Al,

Hope you don't mind if i throw my opinion in here.

When you cross a blue diamond with another discus, the defining features of the blue diamond are lost on the fry and they will have a "normal" wild type pattern. i.e. stress bars and an incomplete blue pattern that allows primary body color to show. Quite often these crosses will develop a lot of secondary pattern coverage as they grow, but it would be more in line with a cobalt or solid turk pattern, rather than the pure solid patterning of the blue diamond.

When you cross a snow white with another discus you create all white based progeny, but in heterozygous form. With this particular gene, the het form will express white, but with a diminished capacity. The snow white does not express any pattern in pure form, but this is not the case for the white het. The white het allows for a pattern on top of the white base and this pattern depends largely on the base pattern of the fish you cross it to.

In this case of a blue diamond, as is well known the blue diamond gene is recessive so it will not express in the F!. Since the blue diamond gene is not "activated" the regular wild form pattern will be able to express itself on top of the white base.

Interestingly, if you were to breed a blue diamond back to one of these fry, about 50% will inherit the white base and of those, 50% will also have the blue diamond pattern. A nice combination indeed!! With these f2's you can breed it back with another blue diamond and you should produce 50% white/blue diamonds and 50% pure blue diamonds. While whites are not true breeding, they are very much controllable!

Rod

[Rod]

I would like to add that a good portion of Snow whites on the market today are the result of breeding for other strains. Meaning something like taking two red whites and breeding them together (a small portion of the progeny will be SW's , but the main goal was more red whites etc). As a result it is very common for a Snow white to also carry a hidden heterogenous gene such as golden or Pigeon blood.

Even more a a curiosity to me is the fact that when Al stopped over to pick some of these fry/juvies up, they were all SS. Would really like to know if this is just a coincidence and if all the nine bar fry had been sold prior to Al's arrival, or if all the fry were SS's.

Point taken regarding the snow white and the genes being carried as the result of breeding het whites together. Probably also explains some of the interesting results from these crosses. Was it fisher that bred a snow white x golden and got a lot more red colors than anyone would guess by looking at the parents?! I can remember crossing a snow white with an alenquer type and many of the fry exhibited blood red blotches throughout the dorsal fin.

Regarding the ss, i don't see it Rick. They kind of have a fineish pattern, but not really the reticulations of a good snakeskin, or the fine 14 barred pattern of a snake. Just 10 or 11 bars, more or less the same form as regular bars. I have seen the odd wild discus like this, so i don't think they are really snakes. But i'd love to see a nice closeup of one showing the barring pattern more. Coming as they do from bar less strains (or more accurately from strains that have genes that mask the barring pattern) there has been no conscious effort on the breeders to select for perfect barring so i think it is quite reasonable to expect this hidden trait to change over the generations and show anomalies when crossed out and expressed again.

Speculation that the BD gene is a mutation of more than one allele is intriguing. I await you reply but in the mean time I want you to consider the blue faced browns we are seeing ( I Have made some of these myself het-bd). I also have some interesting three-five bar fish that were the result of a Stendker BD x Wantanbe turq. The F2's are really getting interesting as well.

Well i don't think the BD gene is a mutation of more than one allele, what i think is there are several genes involved that carry along with the pair of alleles that control the bd mutation during meiosis. Alleles that are on the same chromosome as the bd alleles, and are close enough to link with the bd alleles. While big poops and bds seem to go hand in hand, at the base level with the correct type of mutation this could be separated out. A crossover event could do this and your turk with big poops is probably a result of this type of thing. Kind of the reverse of the desired result, that is regular poops on a blue diamond, but none the less provides an example of what i think is happening, that is a separation of individual traits within a strain. The big poop gene does not have to be controlled in the same manner as the bd gene, even though they were once linked. It could well be dominant for example!! There are other traits on blue diamonds that i think may also be related to this, orange eye color springs to mind. How rare are non hormoned red eyed blue diamonds? They do exist, but they are novelties at best, and not set strains!

HI Rod!
Been awhile my friend...Hope you've been well!I don't mind at all! And I am sure Tony doesnt either! I've a few ideas on breeding these when they grow out.....Ill be sure to keep your comments in mind! Thanks.
Al

Well i wish you plenty of success with these discus Al, breeding whites is always full of surprises and great to experiment with.

[TheRedSpotted]

If I'm right :
- Snow White comes from a brown mutation in 1998 (malaysia)
- Blue Diamaond comes from cobalt mutation in 1991 (Hong Kong).
May the pattern could disappear later on as it occurs in cobalt type when the fish grows

Keep us inform about their evolution.
Regards

[nc0gnet0]

Regarding the ss, i don't see it Rick. They kind of have a fineish pattern, but not really the reticulations of a good snakeskin, or the fine 14 barred pattern of a snake. Just 10 or 11 bars, more or less the same form as regular bars. I have seen the odd wild discus like this, so i don't think they are really snakes. But i'd love to see a nice closeup of one showing the barring pattern more. Coming as they do from bar less strains (or more accurately from strains that have genes that mask the barring pattern) there has been no conscious effort on the breeders to select for perfect barring so i think it is quite reasonable to expect this hidden trait to change over the generations and show anomalies when crossed out and expressed again.

I will have to defer to Al on that, I do know that it is much easier to see on younger juvies, as color start to develop, bars begin to disappear. Having not examined the juvie/fry in person I cannot say for sure.

[brewmaster15]

HI Guys,
Not sure what to make of them. I have some in the group that give me the distinct impression of snakeskin by the bars and fine pattern at such a young age. Others, still have a fine pattern but clearly less bars...along the lines of normal..Then theres a few in the mix with a general diffuse pattern like a Rose Red , some also have splotches of yellow around the face regions.

Took some quick pics. As rick noted the bars are fading ...I'll try and dig up some phone pics from when I got them. The following pics were with my 100mm macro...was hoping to see the scales better, but the Depth of field is tricky.

Anyhow regardless of what they are they don't show any sign of losing their patterns at this point.

hth,
al

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[rickztahone]

Wow, this is some super fine pattern:

[brewmaster15]

more...

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[Phillydubs]

Very interesting and great pics...

Have to say that these pics vs the OP pics to start this thread look so different... I am sure many factors go into this as far as the camera, age of the fish etc.

His pics look so yellow, gold, green blue... Where Al's are very red, white spotted look...

Did he keep certain ones and al took the more reddish type or are they all like this...

Interested, yet confused...

[rickztahone]

Very interesting and great pics...

Have to say that these pics vs the OP pics to start this thread look so different... I am sure many factors go into this as far as the camera, age of the fish etc.

His pics look so yellow, gold, green blue... Where Al's are very red, white spotted look...

Did he keep certain ones and al took the more reddish type or are they all like this...

Interested, yet confused...

That is probably more attributant to flash vs. no flash

[brewmaster15]

Its probably a combination of a bunch of things Phil...but Tony kept 10, and I have the rest.I dont think he selected for color nor did I.

Al

[Phillydubs]

Thanks guys... still cool to see thanks for sharing!

Keep the pics and updates coming!

[nc0gnet0]

Look likes snakes to me! What size are they getting to be? I had a spawn a little bit like this one, funny thing, the ones that showed the most promise early almost became solids, while the ones that were slower to develop color/pattern turned out to be my favorites.

When your ready to do some mutt swapping let me know

mutt Final edit3.jpg

[nc0gnet0]

Pic of a somewhat similar phenotype of a cross I did.

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