Bill (Tshethar)'s First Grow-out Project

[Tshethar]

The tank journal/grow out thread...


Seems to me that every tank we start and every attempt at decision-making along the way brings some surprises, some lessons learned, and hopefully some successes and some experiences (positive or not) that maybe can help others. Not to mention there is some enjoyment in sharing, whether triumphs or tragedies. I'm hoping for more of the former than the latter here, but that remains to be seen...

Like most people, I've started some different threads at different points in my process to this point--now two weeks in with my first discus.

The first threads (this past summer) talked a little about me and my time in the hobby; not so important, but if folks are curious, some personal and hobby history can be found here:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-learning-here!

And then I started with questions and thoughts about my first tank set-up:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...oughts-welcome!

A few pics of the rehabilitation effort in progress:
2015-07-22 16.21.56.jpg2015-08-01 10.07.34.jpg2015-08-02 18.55.26.jpg

Once I got the tank moved in and all systems go, I started aquascaping with driftwood. Decided to follow others into manzanita wood, but had some issues I was unsure about. I actually think these may still be with me today (stay tuned and see below). Here you can at least get an idea of what my first attempt at getting a tank arranged for discus looked like, and an idea of where I hope my fish may ultimately go:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Growout-Phase

However, since the summer the tank planned for discus has remained my manzanita, bristlenose, and... mold(!) tank:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...Moldy-Silicone

Didn't worry too much about it until this point, but now thinking this is something I really do want to get rid of. Thinking of temporarily housing my BNs elsewhere so I can run bleach through this system and then re-cycle it. Not entirely sure whether I want to deal with wood in the system or not after this, along with the space it occupies, or whether the plecos will return or not. Maybe leaning away from them with the discus--they are messy! I do enjoy them, though, and may see if they grow and breed with Tanganyikan shell-dwellers in a 55.

2015-12-07 15.52.19.jpg

Meanwhile, been keeping in touch with Hans as I firmed up plans to grow out a group of juvie fish. He first encouraged me to get rid of the manzanita mold/slime, and to get at least 10 fish, preferably more. Didn't want to start with the group before planned holiday travel, and wanted to have some time off to watch them carefully, so I bided my time...

As the day got closer, I checked in and reported they were going in a 90. He thought it would be okay, but recommended receiving them initially at least in something a bit smaller, as a way of helping them feel secure, start eating, etc.. Given the need for QT and for easy daily WCs, I opted for a 40 breeder I could fit in the guest bathroom... (uh, thanks, honey...).

At long last, fish arrived two weeks ago: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...!!-Thanks-Hans!

Good times.

However, since then there's been some drama, and quite honestly the not-so-fun part of this hobby, included an ER post and two quick deaths:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...le-Issue-in-QT

To be honest, I'm twisting in the wind a little here, yet continuing to hold out hope for growing out a successful group, problems notwithstanding.

Tonight's news is that I'm linking back to that mold issue and thinking that some of those mold spores might be a source of irritation or worse. In hindsight I wish I hadn't brought over my established canister filter to try to ensure a cycled bio-filter on the new tank. I worried more about ammonia and nitrite than I should have given my WCs.

When I moved it over (an Eheim 2217) I changed filter floss but otherwise didn't the disturb media to preserve bacteria. Tonight I decided to take it apart and clean it and was surprised to see that after two weeks, my new floss has turned black, and doesn't rinse out. See what I mean?

2016-01-27 21.51.30.jpg

Yikes. Not normal. This led me to rinse the bio-media with tank water and keep aside, and to pull out and bleach the rest of the filter and its contents. Hoping it will stay clean now, and maybe will make a difference after tonight's 95% WC with aged water.

Meanwhile, wondering about how many more days (if any) before trying meds for two discus not eating.... came close to starting metro tonight, but trying not to overreact. Might try to get some frozen bloodworms or something first....

So, that's where we are. Hoping to be able to follow this up in the days, weeks and months ahead with good news and good pics/video that will be more about fun and celebration than illness, anxieties and problems! (I did have the pleasure today of helping my six-year-old after he got home from school as he fed the discus a cube of FDBW out of his hand for the first time! Needless to say, he really enjoyed it, as did I.)

Anyway whatever happens, hopefully some good can come from it all. Thanks for reading and all the best.

--Bill

[rickztahone]

I noticed that in your cleaning process you seem to have resealed the tank? If so, what silicone did you use to do this?

Do not be discouraged, not everyone gets it in the first try, in fact, most fail the first time around, but, if you stick around, you will enjoy keeping discus as they were meant to be kept.

[Tshethar]

I noticed that in your cleaning process you seem to have resealed the tank? If so, what silicone did you use to do this?

I was careful about this--can't remember if I went with the Ace Hardware brand or GE I, but made sure it was 100% pure silicone, with no additives. Guess people can tell from how it looks that I didn't use the mold resistant stuff!

Do not be discouraged, not everyone gets it in the first try, in fact, most fail the first time around, but, if you stick around, you will enjoy keeping discus as they were meant to be kept.

Yeah, I'm in between right now. I'm a little bummed out about the early bumps in the road--I really detest losing fish, and it's no fun when certain types of effort don't yield good results--but that said, I'm enjoying the personality of the discus themselves, which makes me think I might really enjoy them long term. If I can get the ship on course from here I'm ready to take care of them.

Meanwhile, did a WC this morning and added the levamisole as part of typical QT. Seems like the next step and might help; fish did darken a bit and lost appetite, but from old threads it looks like this is normal. If it doesn't help, at least it will be over and done with if I need to start metro in a couple of days. Bumped temp up a bit more to try to stimulate appetite--we'll see if the heaters can get up to 88. If I feel okay later I might think about visiting the store for frozen treats like brine shrimp or bloodworms.

[rickztahone]

Only raise the temp for the metro treatment, don't raise it with the Levamisole.

[Tshethar]

Any danger in doing so? I've been keeping them a bit warmer, mostly as that's where I started, and some recommend it to stimulate appetite.

I do have extra aeration going... but can ease the temp back as needed.

[rickztahone]

When you treat with some specific meds you generally do not want to treat at high temps as the water oxygen saturation level goes down. Not sure if Levamisole is known to do this, but I recommended bringing it down just in case. You really only do high heat for metro and when they say raise the temp to stimulate appetite, it typically means 84-86 max

[Akili]

Even your plecos have proper dining etiquette how long it took to teach it to use a fork.

[Tshethar]

Even your plecos have proper dining etiquette how long it took to teach it to use a fork.

Truth be told, my young plecos are a work in progress when it comes to table manners. They rarely sit still and often insist on going upside down right in the middle of a meal. Not to mention, they're quite messy. I try to tell them that if they master the arts of fine dining, and mind their manners more generally, then good things await them in the future... Hard to tell if they're listening, though.

2016-01-28 21.12.33.jpg

[Tshethar]

Well, nobody can tell me I'm not giving it a real go as a discus first-timer. Good thing my wife is who she is... ...

...'cuz this is what happens when you really want to grow out discus and you don't have a fishroom...

2016-01-29 22.59.39.jpg

For those keeping score at home, you'll notice the Brute aging barrel now sitting in the shower behind the main tank. Found I can fill it directly from the shower head, which does a good job of degassing the water all by itself with the long drop into the barrel. Since I don't have a pH swing I've been able to "speed age" some extra water on the few occasions I've wanted to do more than a 70% change.

That was the case today as I finished the 24-hour levamisole bath. Didn't see any visible worms--didn't really expect to--but siphoned whatever on the bottom I could beat the fish to and everybody made it through fine. Nobody seems spooky or dark tonight, which is good to see as there had been a bit of that going on with 1-2 fish in the days leading up, along with some darkening from the treatment. Lots of clean water now and some carbon going....

Meanwhile, while the main group looks like it's growing fast and starting to show some color, I continue to have 2 that are stuck in neutral. Since they're 2.5" and haven't attempted to eat in 2 weeks+, I set up a 10 gallon tank next to the barrel, moved them in, and gave them their first dose of metro. Raised temp to 88. Got some frozen bloodworms and will offer them tomorrow. Wish me luck...

They don't look like goners yet to me, so maybe there's still a chance of turning them around:

2016-01-29 22.58.52.jpg2016-01-29 22.59.07.jpg

We'll see.

[Tshethar]

Today's update...

The not-so-good first: 2 small fish have been on metro for about 24 hours now, but haven't come around to eating yet. I do, however, feel good about the decision to separate them from the others and to give them an honest shot at recovery. Did 100% WC this morning, tried some frozen bloodworms, and elevated heat.

Tried again tonight--no go. Decided to offer uneaten bloodworms to other discus--they weren't interested. Yesterday they also reluctantly ate some frozen brine shrimp I picked up at the same time. While it may be because they're unfamiliar with these foods, I think it's more likely my local Petsmart has old stock. May try to return the stuff; not sure about going freeze dried instead--would really like to find something with which to temp the fasters.

Redosed tank tonight, keeping temp at 90. Expecting to lose them, but hoping the tide could still turn.

https://youtu.be/9Y0aKSpQh74

The better news: Main group seems to be doing well...

https://youtu.be/L2pmhYYAca0


And it's fun to feed them.

https://youtu.be/Ovq8ZDaKww8

Edit: darn, can't seem to embed videos for some reason. Oh well; not sure why that's not working. But if that's my biggest problem right now, I'll take it.

[Larry Bugg]

Above the box you are typing in you will see an icon of filmstrip. When you put your mouse on it, it says insert video. Click it. Copy the video url and paste it in the box. Thats it.

[Tshethar]

Thanks, Larry. Appreciate the fix. I actually followed the process you described with the filmstrip icon, but we're good now.

Sorry to report that one of the fasting discus in hospital looks to be showing initial signs of fin rot. ☹️

Don't have any antibacterial meds on hand... Not sure what if anything to do. Still feels a little early to cull. Realize shotgun approach to meds is generally unhelpful... I guess tomorrow will be day 3 on metro. If I see some appetite I could order some kanamycin if that would be the way to go.

Main QT seems fine. Everybody eating, a couple of them darkening here and there but mostly acting normally. Temp down to 83 and going with 2x/day 50-60% WC.

[Tshethar]

Hi all--decided to pick up this thread and continue forward from here after spending most of February working to save these guys. While I didn't succeed in the end, I gained some experience and some help from dedicated forum folks. Ups, downs, drama... meds and live food, picture and videos here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ies-What-to-do

Seems like I've been working with these guys longer than two months, but even now I'm a few days short of that time span now.

In reality, the introduction to the hobby was pretty rough--tried to do things right from the get-go, but still lost half my fish. So there's that...

On the other hand, I just returned from a week away, and found that under my wife's exceptional care (she's really wanted nothing to do with my long-term obsession with fish, but jumped in of her own volition and did amazingly well), possibly helped by a last minute equipment supplement (UV and purigen reactor was sterilized and recharged and added to the 40 breeder), the remaining fish were back to doing great with daily water changes and flake food!

Here's the setup for those interested:

2016-03-10 13.20.46.jpg

I think that and her light feeding and frequent vacuuming and smaller percentage water changes really agreed with them. I've fed a bit more heavily since returning, which seems to produce more aggressive behavior, especially with one fish, but everybody is eating well and I'm no longer worried that the whole group is going to deteriorate. The one fish is bullying in the video below, but nobody takes him that seriously most of the time. Haven't drawn a ruler on the tank glass yet, but some of these guys have grown quite a bit given they were 2.5-3.0" fish less than two months ago. Here they are this afternoon:



And this evening:



Hope to get around to bleaching and resealing the main tank in about two weeks, after which these guys will have some more room to keep growing....

[Tshethar]

Unfortunately, my story with this group of discus does not seem to be a happy one. Opened an ER thread here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...irling-Disease.

Looking to me unfortunately as though this group may never make it out of their quarantine tank. Hopefully some of these experiences might be of future use to someone, but sorry to say the approaches I've attempted have not been enough to ensure success. At this stage, I am about ready to call it quits, though I am bothered about what that will require. Will in all likelihood allow things to limp along for another week or so.

[Akili]

Bill, hats off to you! I have followed your thread in ER and this one too and you can be rest assured that you have given your best to do what is necessary for your fish.Do not blame yourself for any reason if it does not workout in the end.I am sure a lot of people including yourself and me have surely learnt a thing or two from this experience . My best wishes of successful Discus keeping for now and the future are for you!!