Thanks for the tip. The sponges are staying down now so all is good.
My water parameters are as follows:
NO3=0
NO2=0
PH=7.5
KH=180
GH=180
My water has excellent buffering capacity so I think I will stick with the 25-30% every other day. I also add Bactripond. Its a Microbial based pond treatment that I use in my bigger tanks. I think that helps keep everything in check.
And Snap, I think I would snap if my nitrates ever hit the 40ppm.
I am just using API test strips. They change color but to a very light pink which is 0 on the test strips. Definitely less than 20 ppm. The point is the water is good so why change water just to change water? I don't get it.
I have kept fish for 36 yrs and never had to change water so much. I just want to understand why I should change it so often for discus? My arowanas and stingray don't require such a ridiculous regimen why should discus? Am I missing something? If your parameters are good then why mess around?
I would suggest you give this a read to better understand http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Are-Important.
Pat
Your discus are talking to you....are you listening
And here is a video that gives an overall answer. Look at 13:30 to 17:30
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXe3VKh7qF8
And some more reading:
http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-water-changes
In a normal, healthy tank, The denitrification process deals with uneaten food and fish waste. Are discus sensitive to these bacteria? Because it would seem to me that that the biomass or the bioload are dealt with during the denitrification cycle. If you have enough good bacteria they should keep the bad bacteria at bay. Only if you severely overfeed your fish, or you never do water changes, this would this become a problem.
Or is it the waste that is produced by the denitrifying bacteria that is causing the problem? To me it seems like not enough filtration, and because of this not enough good bacteria. And overstocking.
I have heard of the terms bio-mass and bioload before. Usually in the context that your filtration has to match your bioload. I always over filter. An ac 110 is enough to filter 100 gallons so if I use 3 of them I should be able to filter a properly stocked 300 gallon tank. Since my tank is only 230 gallons my tank is over filtered. As long as the filters are maintained and the water changes are done as I currently do 25-30% every second day I should never have a bioload issue.
I would like to go through several assumptions you are making here.
First, the process that takes place in the filter in the presence of oxygen where ammonia is converted to nitrite and nitrite to nitrate is referred to as nitrification. DE-nitrification is a different, anearobic (without oxygen) process. I know what you mean but to avoid confusion its best to have the terms correct.
Second, the bacteria that work on uneaten food and other decomposing crud in the tank are not beneficial bacteria, they are not the same bacteria we want to cultivate in the filter, and while they are not normally pathogenic, they do harm to Discus by loading the immune system with unnecessary work, causing stress. The end result of the action of these bacteria is some ammonia which then undergoes nitrification by filter bacteria. Another end result is dissolved organic carbon, which is also not healthy.
Third... good bacteria don't keep bad bacteria at bay. They have separate food sources and lead separate lives in the tank.
Fourth... filtration does not remove harmful bacteria; siphoning of waste and water changes do that.
Fifth... More and more filtration does not mean cleaner and cleaner water. This is like a shop owner thinking that if he gets a bigger cash register his business will pick up. The population of beneficial bacteria grows to meet the size of its food source, it doesn't keep growing larger just because it has more filter space.
It very well might be that 30% every two days is sufficient given a low stocking level and a good maintenance routine and careful feeding, especially if you have adult fish, but in thinking about this it helps to understand how the various kinds of bacteria are working for or against you.
I missed this post the first time. Great links. Now I get it. Discus are more sensitive due to their acid water origins. This makes total sense now. Its probably why my wild caughts came in such poor condition. I hope to turn them around. This info will help immensely. Thanks everyone!
Jack L - You have heard that growing discus out in big large tanks is best?
It has always been to my understanding that people prefer to keep a growout group in a smaller tank for the simple reason that water changes are less, easier and faster. I have even seen people who have no choice but use a larger tank do so at 1/2 capicity or less...
Again, this is based on my reading and seeing people here on the forum do it... I always figured it was because it is easier to do a 100% change on a 55 or 75 than it is on a 125, 200, etc...
Also, I have heard that juvis can also feel especially small and or "lost" so to speak in such a large tank, as they prefer to school and be close when there is so much room they spread out and don't feel the comfort...
like phillydubs said, u could lower the water level in the tank to reduce the volume and make larger % wc easier while the fish r growing, esp if u get the sponge filters going
I think you're fine as is (period)
-Elliot
RD, I am a discus noob, but I do know math. If you had 13 discus in a 75 (~1/3 of 230) gallon tank, your "over time" metabolic waste levels would be exactly the same as if you changed the same percentage of water every 16 hours (1/3 of 48 hours). Use that comparison to judge from other folks' comments if you are changing water often enough.
People say planted discus tanks are unnatural. I wish I could figure out why the Amazon is so muddy...with that bare glass bottom it has.
Just thought I would chime in with some general knowledge regarding cichlids not specific to Discus, but I suspect it holds true. The big tank grow out pro theory in my experience, is based on volume of fresh water during changes, a sorta internal mechanism that tells a fish, you have space grow big, and abundance of filtration (will touch on that below). The big grow out tank con theory is based on fish simply not being able to find food, and this can be true with some fish, but feeding from the same spot or using feeding cone type apparatus fixes this imho. My general consensus from more than 30 years of breeding Cichlids is yes, big tanks will grow fish faster (much faster if given the right routine).
As for more filtration = better water quality... true or false. I see this come up in every forum at some point. My take is this. Naturally there will only be an amount of bacteria to correspond with the bio-load... However, and it is a big however in my book. When you have allot of filtration, ie allot of space for bacteria to colonize, although x amount of bio-load equals x amount of bacteria, the bacteria is spread out over much more media, and if the bio-load increases the colonization of more beneficial bacteria can take place much quicker, and because there is so much more media, will not reach a dead end nearly as quickly.. ie an undersized filter can only hold so much bacteria. This is not to say it will save you from poor water routines, especially with massive feedings that discus tend to get at the grow out stage, however it will be a bit more forgiving. This is especially useful to know if you plan to add more fish, but again if you dump a substantial amount of fish in without adding more colonized material, don't expect the bacteria to save you from a crash, it will simply keep things going more with gradual changes to bio-load.
Last edited by mee; 02-14-2016 at 03:36 AM.