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Thread: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

  1. #1
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    As a few of you may know, I'm starting a small SW tank alongside my discus tank. It has been in the works for what seems like years, and I have slowly been acquiring parts. The more research I do, the more I find myself having more questions and burying myself deeper in to this SW hobby. Some of the things that SW people do goes directly against what we as discus keepers advocate. Either way, I am enjoying the journey.

    Just wondering how many of you have or have had SW setups? Care to share what you had? Tank size / inhabitants / configurations / pics?

    I'd like to have this thread as a smorgasbord of just SW related topics and info. This isn't a traditional thread in that it doesn't really have a unifying theme. Just something related to SW is fine.

    Remember, this is in my homesteader section and it is OT (off topic), so, if you do not like SW at all, we have a ton of discus stuff to discus on all other sub-forums

    I'll start by saying that I am not sure what all the reactors are for and how to know which ones are needed and which can be bypassed. The more I search, the more a headache I get.

    I've tried asking this question in a SW forum and ended up getting a free return pump, lol. Not sure how that happened, but it happened.

    Remember, pics RULE EVERYTHING around here!!!


    P.S. - you do not have to have had a SW or have one currently to participate. Maybe you have been curious about setting one up yourself (hint hint Pat )

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

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    Registered Member Discus-n00b's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    I can sum up my journey in pictures, and you can see extreme progression. I started out small, probably to small for a beginner, but I didn't care. I was fascinated by nano and pico reefs. I think I have dates ROUGHLY correct, but who knows. LONG POST!

    My first reef came around the 2005-2006 time frame, it was a 2.5gal and I stuck a 250w MH above it. I went as cheap and DIY as I could, which in the end was not a good idea and eventually led to me pulling the plug on it down the road. I didn't care about coral types, if it looked good I bought it and stuck it in there, big mistake. I kept stuff alive generally speaking, but it never flourished or grew. I was dosing without checking params, and just going about it all wrong. I think I had a sixline wrasse and royal gramma at this point fish wise.



    In 2007 I left for bootcamp and turned the tank over to my family, if you can keep it going, great if not oh well I'll restart it I said. They basically just topped it off, maybe did 1-2 WCs while I was away. Not good. I obviously came back to disarray, but like I said, I wanted to start over anyway and upgrade. This is what the tank looked like before I tore it down.


    Fast forward to early 2008, I started the tank back. This time a whopping 10gal. It was like a whole new world to me having so much space! I started minimilistic, but again the DIY and cheap filtration/components just never cut it. I cut to many corners. This is the tank restarted in very early 2008.


    I found out mid to late 2008 that there was a possibility I would be deployed to the Middle East. I held out as long as I could with the tank, not knowing if I was for sure going, but in mid 2009 it was torn down for my deployment. It was to be a longer stretch than bootcamp and I didn't want it in someone else's hands. This is the last photo of it to my knowledge. As you can see, lots of small frags or small colonies bought that way....nothing really growing or florishing. I had just bought myself frags upon frags rather than buy a few and establish the tank.


    I once had dreams for a 40gal breeder reef but it never came to be. I had a big skimmer for it, and the tank was drilled, it just never got off the ground.

    Fast forward even more, to 2013. Time to get a reef started again, but do it CORRECTLY. Except I did DIY LEDs. I bought a 15gal starphire cube (love the nanos remember) and I was determined to keep SPS in it. This is July of 2013



    Here it is a very short time later.


    Then the unthinkable happened. It could quite possibly be one of the worst Christmas's I've had. Dec 24, 2013. I did a WC like normal after getting water from the LFS a day or two before (before I got my RO Unit working again). Except this time I came back after eating dinner to a complete loss of life in the tank, well almost. It was a mass disaster. I racked my brain for what I did or didn't do and ended up testing the water, yep.....all fresh water. Zero salt. The LFS gave me FW instead of SW RODI. I was sick to my stomach. The LFS had also closed for Christmas. I had to run up to Petsmart 2 mins up the road and buy an overpriced bucket of salt 5 mins before they closed to try and save anything I could. I had to swallow it and move on. It was my fault for not checking prior and trusting this LFS that i've visited and used since I was in single digits age wise. But it was their fault for giving me wrong water. I still have yet to this day step foot in that LFS and I'm not sure when I will again. I'd just rather cut losses and not deal with them.

    I tried to just throw up my hands and say the deed was done, I'll just focus on Christmas but it was tough. Still is, I had JUST gotten some of the nicest frags from John Copps I've ever seen and lost most of them roughly a week later to this. In the end I came to one conclusion. Lessons cost money, good ones cost a lot. My next amazon order was the parts I needed for my RO system, buckets, and a refractometer. I've since hauled jugs of water and mixed my own salt, test it twice before the WC. Cut out the middle man.

    SO, we are almost through, I restarted the tank after the first of the year in 2014. I was going to do this. A faulty LFS and personal mix up wasn't going to stop me. I restarted the tank with a new found passion and haven't looked back since. It's better than I could of imagined and sometimes I ask myself it it would be as good as it is if not for that Dec 24 2013 crash. Doubt it. Below are pictures spanning from April 1, 2014 to a few days ago April 2015. Enjoy, and if you are starting the salty world be patient! Nothing good ever, EVER, happens fast in a reef tank. Let it grow!

    The two frags on the sandbed on the right side the green and purple ones are clearly seen in the newer tank shots!


    May 2014, Slimer placed in it's final resting spot. Still running DIY LED.


    August 2014, actually bought a good high end light and growth exploded.


    Sept 2014


    Jan 2015


    March 2015


    June 2015


    Aug 2015


    Nov 2015


    Feb 2016


    And here we are! April 2016! Better than ever!
    -Matt


  3. #3
    Registered Member hedut's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    WOW, those are amazing Matt, hey Ric post pictures when you done set up will you
    Henry
    Back to Discus grin:

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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Thanks for this thread, looking forward to reading your journal. I've been obsessing over starting a salt water tank lately lol. Any forums as informative/helpful as simplydiscus for salt water tanks? I can admit I know absolutely nothing about prepping or maintaining a salt water tank...

  5. #5
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Matt, thank you for participating. I will say that Matt had something to do with that initial spark of interest in SW. Not all, as I have always had it in the back of my mind, but I always knew how expensive it was and always held off because of this. Seeing Matt's progression on his tank though made me realize how nice even a small tank can be. Thanks Matt for sharing your journey, that is exactly what I was looking for.

    The theme of your journey I take it to be to not start with a lot of frags, and only have a few and let them mature. However, how do you mature a tank with just frags? Do you dose something to keep nitrates up or do the small amount of corals produce enough waste to keep a system cycled?

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

    Also, click here for my 25 group of discus grow out thread


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  6. #6
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Quote Originally Posted by hedut View Post
    WOW, those are amazing Matt, hey Ric post pictures when you done set up will you
    I plan to Henry. I am very excited about the journey myself, and in case you hadn't seen these pics, this is what I am working with:
    DSC06788 by Rick Vasquez, on Flickr
    DSC06790 by Rick Vasquez, on Flickr
    Those were taken a while back. I have actual rock now and plan to do a test run for scaping soon. From reading a lot of start ups, I have noticed that a lot of peoples first mistake is to add WAY too much rock at first. My goal is simple, minimalistic scape and let the corals and clowns be the center point of the tank.

    Quote Originally Posted by bamzam View Post
    Thanks for this thread, looking forward to reading your journal. I've been obsessing over starting a salt water tank lately lol. Any forums as informative/helpful as simplydiscus for salt water tanks? I can admit I know absolutely nothing about prepping or maintaining a salt water tank...
    I frequent a few SW forums. Luckily for me, there seems to be a lot of SW activity and groups in SoCal area. Not sure where you are located but it may be similar.

    I frequent ReefCentral the most often. Their DIY section is very informative.
    I also frequent Nano-reef as well as Socalireefs. This last one will be more geared towards SoCal members however.
    I find that Nano-reef has a great array of tanks that members are always uploading pics on. This has helped me tremendously because when I see a tank that I like, I go and see what their equipment consists of, or their dosing regimen, things of this nature.

    Anyone that knows me knows that I love doing my research first and I love planning things far in advance. So far, this build has been in the works for MONTHS, and I am yet to make my first move towards actually building something. Acquiring parts first and trying to get my plumbing going soon. First the stand though which typically takes me months in itself, lol. My goal is to not go over budget as I always seem to do in all my builds.

    Please follow along with us and maybe it will encourage you to start one of your own? However, remember that when you opened this thread, you signed a virtual release form that you cannot blame the OP for getting you involved in SW and depletion of further funds,

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

    Also, click here for my 25 group of discus grow out thread


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  7. #7
    Registered Member Discus-n00b's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Quote Originally Posted by rickztahone View Post
    The theme of your journey I take it to be to not start with a lot of frags, and only have a few and let them mature. However, how do you mature a tank with just frags? Do you dose something to keep nitrates up or do the small amount of corals produce enough waste to keep a system cycled?
    It's not totally about the number per say, but there really isn't a point in buying more than you have space for. And this goes for all types. What good is a frag growing on a rack that you have no place for on the sandbed/rocks? A frag of your colonies is one thing but extra frags you've purchased that sit on the rack are quite useless really unless you have a plan for them or get them for free/next to nothing. I suppose they can be used as a form of currency in trades but again, if you are full up why more frags? I've found as the tank has grown that space is premium, especially in a smaller tank and I want as much empty space on my frag rack as I can to put my own frags I've made from the tank not new frags I've brought in. Early on a full rack is ok as you are acclimating your stock, but in the middle part of the journey clean it off!! Plan your tank out, eyeball some specifics you want to keep and acquire them. Grow them then if you see something else you like, frag yours in half or whatever and trade (or sell and use the money) for a piece of the new one. That frees up space where you fragged to put it and hopefully helped cover any costs.

    To be honest I wouldn't recommend a reef tank without some type of fish. I tried it early on and struggled getting a balance right. Fish poop actually helps coral color up and thrive to some extent. I think the general assumption is you will be adding fish to a reef tank, and this likely will be before or at the beginning of the coral stage of the process. Corals really don't add to your bioload enough to count them IMO. The two clowns in my tank provide plenty of wastes, probably to much to be honest.

    I want to upgrade and go larger. Maybe I'll price a build out and see what it will take.
    -Matt


  8. #8
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus-n00b View Post
    It's not totally about the number per say, but there really isn't a point in buying more than you have space for. And this goes for all types. What good is a frag growing on a rack that you have no place for on the sandbed/rocks? A frag of your colonies is one thing but extra frags you've purchased that sit on the rack are quite useless really unless you have a plan for them or get them for free/next to nothing. I suppose they can be used as a form of currency in trades but again, if you are full up why more frags? I've found as the tank has grown that space is premium, especially in a smaller tank and I want as much empty space on my frag rack as I can to put my own frags I've made from the tank not new frags I've brought in. Early on a full rack is ok as you are acclimating your stock, but in the middle part of the journey clean it off!! Plan your tank out, eyeball some specifics you want to keep and acquire them. Grow them then if you see something else you like, frag yours in half or whatever and trade (or sell and use the money) for a piece of the new one. That frees up space where you fragged to put it and hopefully helped cover any costs.

    To be honest I wouldn't recommend a reef tank without some type of fish. I tried it early on and struggled getting a balance right. Fish poop actually helps coral color up and thrive to some extent. I think the general assumption is you will be adding fish to a reef tank, and this likely will be before or at the beginning of the coral stage of the process. Corals really don't add to your bioload enough to count them IMO. The two clowns in my tank provide plenty of wastes, probably to much to be honest.

    I want to upgrade and go larger. Maybe I'll price a build out and see what it will take.
    Gotcha. I am hesitant to add the clownfish early on as I plan to drop close to $200 for each. I was looking at the Gold nugget maroons but from my first research it seems they do not do very well together and prefer to be more solitary. The premium black snowflakes I was looking at as well seem to be more social and can adapt to a smaller tank easier, again, just from my preliminary reading.

    Either way, you are suggesting once my cycle is complete, add only a few corals and the 2 clownfish straight away?

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

    Also, click here for my 25 group of discus grow out thread


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  9. #9
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Matt, have you seen these clownfish?
    http://www.seaandreef.com/marine-orn...inci-clownfish

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

    Also, click here for my 25 group of discus grow out thread


    http://i3.cpcache.com/product/162117...ht=75&width=75
    Want to look like Al did at his ACA talk with his white Simply Polo shirt?(You can catch Al's awesome Discus talk HERE)
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    Registered Member Discus-n00b's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Ricardo, I'd add fish before any coral. Coral doesn't add bioload but it's a bit more finiky to water conditions than fish, or seems to be. So it'd be like Cycle, Clean up crew, Fish, Coral. Realistically you will probably be fine adding some softies, mushrooms, zoas, etc as they can take some abuse if needed but generally it will follow that stocking order.

    Never seen those! I like them. I've always liked black and white clowns, I think because it reminds me of dairy cows....and I like dairy cows LOL.
    -Matt


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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Rick, the principle of a saltwater tank is actually very simple - patience. As Matt was saying, cycle your tank then add crabs and hermits and then fish and coral. But if I may, I have different ways of doing things and you may benefit from a few. I didn't go read back through so some of this may have been covered...

    Do not use live rock whatever you do.
    Make sure you have a reliable ATO system
    Skip the live sand - if you even put sand - if you do make sure it's shallow.
    IMO - under thirty gallons and water changes will trump a fuge and/or protein skimmer.
    Make sure to feed very little in a nano system.
    Don't add any additives what so ever.


    You will quickly learn that there is only one real key to having a successful reef tank - low nutrients. Especially phosphates.

    I believe I saw you put up a sketch and you were including a fuge - IMO and several others - this is useless in a small system. It may be cool to have the little ball of algae growing but it will do you no good. Don't put any type of substrate or rock ect in the fuge area. If anything, eheim media in a Tupperware or bag.


    You will not find a skimmer at a decent price or that will perform for this size system. Anything rated for a nano and internal will be expensive and not function well, anything for a full size tank will have large footprint, and will be far to strong for the tank. I would run from any HOB skimmer.
    Last edited by zchauvin; 04-19-2016 at 06:58 PM.
    -Zach

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    Registered Member zchauvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    This will give you a good read on a tank setup similar to yours.

    http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/29623...o-4-years-old/
    -Zach

  13. #13
    Registered Member Discus-n00b's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Quote Originally Posted by zchauvin View Post
    Do not use live rock whatever you do.
    Make sure you have a reliable ATO system
    Skip the live sand - if you even put sand - if you do make sure it's shallow.
    IMO - under thirty gallons and water changes will trump a fuge and/or protein skimmer.
    Make sure to feed very little in a nano system.
    Don't add any additives what so ever.

    You will quickly learn that there is only one real key to having a successful reef tank - low nutrients. Especially phosphates.

    You will not find a skimmer at a decent price or that will perform for this size system. Anything rated for a nano and internal will be expensive and not function well, anything for a full size tank will have large footprint, and will be far to strong for the tank. I would run from any HOB skimmer.
    I would agree with most of this. My only differing options come from not using any additives and the skimmer. I agree don't add additives......at first. Figure out how your tank balances itself, how much your corals, inverts, etc are using and then decide if you want to dose. Dosing is fine in a small tank just like a large tank, it just takes crunching numbers and doing it slowly like through a dosing pump. When I was dosing, and what I will be going back to, is doing the dose over the course of the entire day.

    The skimmer I don't totally agree with because I'm running one rated for like a 75-100gal tank and it's pulling crap out just fine. I do think there is a limit as if it's to large or rated to large the amount of nutrients in your tank won't be enough to push the skimmate up the entire length of the neck so you won't be skimming much. Especially in a low nutrient tank. This IMO, is the only way a skimmer can ever be to large....nutrient availability for the skimmer to suck up. Stay on the lower end of things in terms of "rated for" and I don't see much of an issue. They all have a limiting return and you can just plug it up to a timer or controller and only run it certain times of the day. I'm looking to swap it out actually as it has a leak in the bottom. Heard nothing but good things about the Aquamaxx HOBs thinking about one for myself. I think with your build you won't be going HOB route for pretty much anything but I personally would not call all HOB skimmers crap or useless for small tanks. My skimmer is my partner, it has my back should I miss a WC or something, it's not a replacement for maintenance.
    -Matt


  14. #14
    Registered Member rickztahone's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Quote Originally Posted by zchauvin View Post
    Rick, the principle of a saltwater tank is actually very simple - patience. As Matt was saying, cycle your tank then add crabs and hermits and then fish and coral. But if I may, I have different ways of doing things and you may benefit from a few. I didn't go read back through so some of this may have been covered...

    Do not use live rock whatever you do.
    Make sure you have a reliable ATO system
    Skip the live sand - if you even put sand - if you do make sure it's shallow.
    IMO - under thirty gallons and water changes will trump a fuge and/or protein skimmer.
    Make sure to feed very little in a nano system.
    Don't add any additives what so ever.


    You will quickly learn that there is only one real key to having a successful reef tank - low nutrients. Especially phosphates.

    I believe I saw you put up a sketch and you were including a fuge - IMO and several others - this is useless in a small system. It may be cool to have the little ball of algae growing but it will do you no good. Don't put any type of substrate or rock ect in the fuge area. If anything, eheim media in a Tupperware or bag.


    You will not find a skimmer at a decent price or that will perform for this size system. Anything rated for a nano and internal will be expensive and not function well, anything for a full size tank will have large footprint, and will be far to strong for the tank. I would run from any HOB skimmer.
    Thanks Zach. Actually, today I saw a sump go up for sale that doesn't have a fuge section but will still be super useful in my setup. Just has an area for a skimmer and a return. Planning on adding Siporax in an egg crate rack.

    When you say do not add any additives, which ones do you mean? I was planning on running a phosban reactor, are you not recommending this? Do I need to run carbon/kalkwasser (I actually really wanted to try this)/Bio pellet...etc?

    Quote Originally Posted by zchauvin View Post
    This will give you a good read on a tank setup similar to yours.

    http://www.nano-reef.com/topic/29623...o-4-years-old/
    It is that tank in particular that made me join Nano-reef. I have been following him for a while. It is my aspiration to have something like that a few years from now.

    Click here to view my 75g Acrylic Tank w/ Bean Animal Overflow with 40g Sump Thread

    Also, click here for my 25 group of discus grow out thread


    http://i3.cpcache.com/product/162117...ht=75&width=75
    Want to look like Al did at his ACA talk with his white Simply Polo shirt?(You can catch Al's awesome Discus talk HERE)
    You can get this and many more items such as T-shirts/Polos/hoodies/cups from our merchandise shop:
    Cafepress.com

  15. #15
    Registered Member zchauvin's Avatar
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    Default Re: OT - Share your Salt Water journey

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus-n00b View Post
    I would agree with most of this. My only differing options come from not using any additives and the skimmer. I agree don't add additives......at first. Figure out how your tank balances itself, how much your corals, inverts, etc are using and then decide if you want to dose. Dosing is fine in a small tank just like a large tank, it just takes crunching numbers and doing it slowly like through a dosing pump. When I was dosing, and what I will be going back to, is doing the dose over the course of the entire day.

    The skimmer I don't totally agree with because I'm running one rated for like a 75-100gal tank and it's pulling crap out just fine. I do think there is a limit as if it's to large or rated to large the amount of nutrients in your tank won't be enough to push the skimmate up the entire length of the neck so you won't be skimming much. Especially in a low nutrient tank. This IMO, is the only way a skimmer can ever be to large....nutrient availability for the skimmer to suck up. Stay on the lower end of things in terms of "rated for" and I don't see much of an issue. They all have a limiting return and you can just plug it up to a timer or controller and only run it certain times of the day. I'm looking to swap it out actually as it has a leak in the bottom. Heard nothing but good things about the Aquamaxx HOBs thinking about one for myself. I think with your build you won't be going HOB route for pretty much anything but I personally would not call all HOB skimmers crap or useless for small tanks. My skimmer is my partner, it has my back should I miss a WC or something, it's not a replacement for maintenance.
    Matt, if you do weekly waterchanges of even 10% on a nano tank you do not need a protein skimmer or dosing as the water changes will fully replace any depleted elements. The only real exception being using a cheap low range salt such as IO vs say Red Sea coral pro. IO (not IO reef crystals) often starts off lower than desired levels. Again, this depends on the system. I ran IO in my lps tank for some years without ever needing to dose. I have only seen very few nano tanks that required dosing but they were under very high light and packed with Acropora coral. In most cases, some Acropora RTN because the alk would spike due to dosing in such a small system. As I'm sure you know, levels can go off quickly in a small system.

    Also, the only reason I say to stay away from HOB is the reason you stated, they have the tendency to leak whether it be out of the box or over time. The less variables and things to fail the better IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by rickztahone View Post
    Thanks Zach. Actually, today I saw a sump go up for sale that doesn't have a fuge section but will still be super useful in my setup. Just has an area for a skimmer and a return. Planning on adding Siporax in an egg crate rack.

    When you say do not add any additives, which ones do you mean? I was planning on running a phosban reactor, are you not recommending this? Do I need to run carbon/kalkwasser (I actually really wanted to try this)/Bio pellet...etc?



    It is that tank in particular that made me join Nano-reef. I have been following him for a while. It is my aspiration to have something like that a few years from now.
    Rick, IMO a phosphate reactor would not be needed. A simple bag of clear fx pro or similar would more than suffice.

    By additives I was referring to Kalkwasser, Calcium, magnesium, strontium, any of the KZ line of additives such as amino acid lps, coral snow, ect. Your system will more than likely not take many nutrients out of the water column and unless closely monitored you will quickly over dose and start to grow algae.

    My only experience with kalkwasser was to attempt to keep my ph up but again it is not really necessary. If you do want to run it let me know and I can fill you in on different meathods and the pros/cons of each.
    Last edited by zchauvin; 04-19-2016 at 09:20 PM.
    -Zach

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