Seachem Pristine

[Poppa Ryno]

If i understand the "augmented bacteria" thing right. Its the same idea as a stem cell research is wanting to do only with bacteria. The bacteria is undecided until its needed. Then it goes aerobic or anaerobic depending on the job it needs to do. Then it will assign itself the proper role.

[afriend]

I think this stuff is worth a try, but the skeptic in me has the following questions:

If the main reason we strive to keep our tanks clean is to keep low the numbers of bacteria that are feasting on detritus, wouldn't it be counterproductive to add bacteria? After all, it is not the detritus itself that is a problem, but the bacteria that are decomposing it. Or are the bacteria in Pristine somehow different-- do they displace more harmful types?

And a well-established tank that has anaerobic pockets (substrate) should already have colonies of facultative anaerobes.

There are a multitude of different strains of bacteria, some are beneficial while others are harmful. For example the type that are in the biological filter of your aquarium are very beneficial because they process ammonia (which is toxic to your fish) first into nitrite and then into nitrate that is removed with water exchange. These types of bacteria do not harm your fish in any way.

Discus do not have a very strong immune system, so the objective is to reduce the number pathogens (bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus) existing in the aquarium. One way to accomplish this is to reduce the available food supply of the pathogens. The food supply exists in two forms: uneaten fish food and feces. That's why tank maintenance is important.

The bacteria in Pristine is of the beneficial type. They do not displace harmful types, but they are beneficial because they reduce the food source by making the food dissolve into the water column where it can be removed by water exchange.

Paul

[afriend]

This is just an FYI from SEACHEM

Pristine works well with all of our products and filter medias. It is simply beneficial bacteria that helps to breakdown large detritus in the aquarium, as well as, provide bacteria for your biological filter. If you do 60% water changes daily, it would not hurt to add a dose of Pristine several times a week after the water change. Especially if you are cleaning the filter. Any time you do maintenance on the filter, you are potentially disturbing the beneficial bacteria, so adding Pristine will compensate for that.

Jim,

Thanks for your input. The way I have implemented my filtration system is to have a stand-alone biological filter in a canister containing Seachem matrix. Tank water circulation first flows into a mechanical filter (25 micron pleated filter) and then into a separate dedicated biological filter, also contained in a canister. With this setup the biological filter is left undisturbed for at least two years, while the mechanical filter is serviced much more often.

It appears that the bacteria in Pristine become established quickly (just a few days). Of course some of the bacteria in the mechanical filter are removed when it is serviced, but the ones remaining in the biological filter will quickly reestablish the ones removed when the mechanical filter is cleaned. Thus I don't think that I will have to add Pristine several times a week after cleaning the mechanical filter. At least this is my theory, I'll find out as I get more experienced as time goes by.

Paul

[afriend]

If i understand the "augmented bacteria" thing right. Its the same idea as a stem cell research is wanting to do only with bacteria. The bacteria is undecided until its needed. Then it goes aerobic or anaerobic depending on the job it needs to do. Then it will assign itself the proper role.

While I understand aerobic and anaerobic processes, I have no idea what you mean by the rest of your statement. Could you please explain this somewhat?

Paul

[Poppa Ryno]

I was making an analogy towards stem cells. Where they are a blank cell that gets its instructions from other cells or are augmented to become a a certain cell as become introduced to their new environment. As i said "if i understand it right" (which i may very well not) the bacteria is augmented to a blank slate and can become aerobic or anaerobic depending on surrounding bacterial roles.

[DJW]

There are a multitude of different strains of bacteria, some are beneficial while others are harmful. For example the type that are in the biological filter of your aquarium are very beneficial because they process ammonia (which is toxic to your fish) first into nitrite and then into nitrate that is removed with water exchange. These types of bacteria do not harm your fish in any way.

Discus do not have a very strong immune system, so the objective is to reduce the number pathogens (bacteria, virus, parasites, and fungus) existing in the aquarium. One way to accomplish this is to reduce the available food supply of the pathogens. The food supply exists in two forms: uneaten fish food and feces. That's why tank maintenance is important.

The bacteria in Pristine is of the beneficial type. They do not displace harmful types, but they are beneficial because they reduce the food source by making the food dissolve into the water column where it can be removed by water exchange.

Paul

One more bit of Devil's advocacy, and I will let the product speak for itself.

The reason that we call the nitrifiers "beneficial bacteria" is they handle the nitrogen cycle and aren't by their nature capable of attacking and consuming organic matter (=fish). The bacteria in Pristine have metabolism that makes them very closely related to pathogenic bacteria. For this reason I'm not yet convinced that they are actually beneficial, or that they are any different than the bacteria currently decomposing the detritus in my tank, and which I am always trying to remove.

[afriend]

One more bit of Devil's advocacy, and I will let the product speak for itself.

The reason that we call the nitrifiers "beneficial bacteria" is they handle the nitrogen cycle and aren't by their nature capable of attacking and consuming organic matter (=fish). The bacteria in Pristine have metabolism that makes them very closely related to pathogenic bacteria. For this reason I'm not yet convinced that they are actually beneficial, or that they are any different than the bacteria currently decomposing the detritus in my tank, and which I am always trying to remove.

I have no personal knowledge if they are or could be harmful to discus. However they are marketed by Seachem which is a very respected company and I have confidence in their ability to produce a new product. I do know that they perform research based on science before introducing a new product. So what I am saying is that I am relying on their reputation to produce a new product that will not harm my fish.

Paul

[Kyla]

is this product along the lines of the rid-x type of probiotics ive read about ppl adding to their aquariums? eg the same kind of bacteria ppl seed in their septic fields?

[yogi]

is this product along the lines of the rid-x type of probiotics ive read about ppl adding to their aquariums? eg the same kind of bacteria ppl seed in their septic fields?

After reading this thread about Pristine I did some searches on google and the answer is yes. I found that rid-x would work out cheaper, but is not marketed to aquarium use like some people are using it. I could not find Pristine locally so I mail ordered it. I really hope it reduces the slime that grows on the propellers in my filters.

[Filip]

One more bit of Devil's advocacy, and I will let the product speak for itself.

The reason that we call the nitrifiers "beneficial bacteria" is they handle the nitrogen cycle and aren't by their nature capable of attacking and consuming organic matter (=fish). The bacteria in Pristine have metabolism that makes them very closely related to pathogenic bacteria. For this reason I'm not yet convinced that they are actually beneficial, or that they are any different than the bacteria currently decomposing the detritus in my tank, and which I am always trying to remove.

This is a good question Dan, but I doubt somebody could answer it.
My reasoning would be that they are completely different type of bacteria from bacteria's we discus keepers desperately trying to remove via wipeing, siphoning and WC-ing.
And I was always wondering , but never find answer about an actual name or genus of bacterias we try to remove and that compromises discus immune system.
And I have read articles in the past about measuring their numbers in water column and on discus slime coat, but never an actual name .
Who are we fighting against here ???

[DJW]

I don't know either. Bacteria are hard to identify unless you have a lab. About the most a hobbyist could do is determine whether an infectious bacteria is gram positive or negative, which can help in deciding which antibiotic to use. And even then the fish might be dead before you had the answer.

If you look at the bacteria that cause anthrax under a microscope, you can't tell it apart from some of the harmless germs that normally live in our intestines.

As I understand it, a bacteria in the water doesn't have to be pathogenic to be harmful to a sensitive fish like Discus. It could work like an allergy, where the immune system overreacts to the presence of something that would otherwise not be harmful. But I am only guessing.

I think Willie (aka 'Coconuts') is a microbiologist. He might be able to help with this question.

[afriend]

What I would like to do with this thread now is to explain the background behind why I think that Pristine could possibly change the way discus are kept, especially in a show tank with adult discus. About three years ago I began developing a new type of filtration system. At least I think it's new because I haven't found it anywhere else on the internet. The details of this filtration system are explained on my Homestead page here at Simply Discus (included are lots of pictures and diagrams showing how to build the system and how it functions):

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...d)-NW-Arkansas

Here is a listing of the attributes of the system:

1) Pristine crystal clear water.
2) Elimination of algae (even with the lights on 24/7).
3) Elimination of nitrate (bright yellow using API test kit).
4) Automatic removal of feces and uneaten food (no siphoning required).
5) Pristine clean glass and decorative items (no wiping required ).
6) Healthy bilogically clean water free from organic compounds (suspended or dissolved).
7) No tank maintenance for at least one month, other than daily water exchange which can be automated.

The biggest drawback of my existing system is that it is not easy to implement and is expensive to build. However, since Pristine became available, I think that it may be possible to substantially reduce the cost and complexity of the system. Here's why: attribute #4 above is the most difficult and expensive to achieve because it requires a low TDS (about 80 ppm or less) and a very large amount of tank water circulation in order to get the ueaten food and feces to dissolve. Seachem claims that "Pristine is a bacterial additive and will take solid organic waste and convert it to dissolved organics ....." If Pristine can achieve this in an efficient way, then perhaps the equipment (RO pump and tank, bubble lift tubes, large circulation pump, and large external mechanical filter) may not be necessary.

What I have accomplished thus far with Pristine is to demonstrate that the addition of the product does in fact improve the results in my existing tank and system by cleaning up the tubing that carries the water and reducing the amount of detritus in the pleated mechanical filter. Now what I am considering is to modify my existing system to see if all of the attributes above can be achieved without the need for the additional equipment thus making my system less expensive and easier to implement.

Would appreciate inputs with comments, ideas or encouragement.

Paul

[ksuyen]

Thanks for sharing this. I have trust in Seachem products (Prime and Purigen are excellent), and though Pristine is not yet available here, I will try it when they come.

I use similiar products made by another excellent company Continuum, it's called Bacter Clean.F. In case someone interested for the alternative, here is a little description.

Bacter Clean•F is a unique freshwater microbial culture and enzyme product specifically designed to target and clean surfaces of live plants, driftwood, decorations, rocks and tank walls, removing stains, loosening and softening debris for easy vacuuming and providing a cleaner, more pristine environment. It will outcompete unwanted substances and loosen the grip of ugly accumulations and coatings making their removal by scraping or vacuuming easy. Its exclusive bacterial formula does much of the work for you, to help provide the beautiful freshwater or planted aquarium you have always wanted. It will also rapidly breakdown organic waste, leftover food, debris and detritus in freshwater aquariums, providing essential water quality improvement.

link: http://www.continuumaquatics.com/fre...ter_cleanf.php

[Filip]

@ksuyen this seems to be the same product description like pristine.
Since you have already used it , did you notice any improvements in less slime building on glass, or less crud and debris in the sandbed?
Didi you notice any visible results?

[ksuyen]

Actually I just started using it. I did notice a considerably amount of pristine clear water in the first week, despite the mess after feeding you usually see. I am not sure about Seachem product, but Continuum Bacter Clean requires at least 1 bottle cup per 10 gallon, or 6 cups in my case, to start with. And you do need to maintain the minimum dosage after that for a while. I believe once the bacteria settles at one point, you can stop dosing it though. I am in my second week now and yet to see any improvements in less slime building on glass, but there are a lot more debris on the ground than before. I suspect they came off from the woods, roots, leaves, rocks, etc.