Do people do WC's out of habit or actual need?

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Easttech, water is more then about what percent nitrates you have. There is also bacteria, pathogens and organic compounds that result from uneaten fish food and fish poop. Water changes are needed to keep all this at a low level. Discus are a sensitive fish and clean water keeps them healthy. Juvies need lots of clean water not only to keep them healthy but also grow to properly grow well. The true measure of a discus keeper is how his/her fish look.

Since your fish are three inches then I assume you have not had them long. Are you basing your water change schedule on only experience with this group of fish?
Pat

[easttech]

First I would like to thank you for a very thoughtful reply. I was basing it on the appearance and behavior of this group and what I thought was driving the WC's which was nitrates. I am paying very close attention to my fish, if I need to do things different I will. I am not good at doing things just because someone tells me too. I want to/need to understand. It sounds like mine could be doing fine and then one day it all goes to hell because they get sick. I posted a couple of pics.

I have had some responses that say what I am doing appears fine as long as my fish appear fine. I have other responses where people just make statements without supporting facts. I don't respond well to that.

Thank you

[John_Nicholson]

Long story short. DOC's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolved_organic_carbon

and Bioload. Just because you can't see it does not mean stuff is not there. You water is made of of hundreds of compounds and you are checking and focusing on one. So you tell me is that a good enough test? All of us old timers have told you that it is not. They are your fish and you can do what you want to but we have all seen this thousands of times. People tell us how great their fish are doing for a several months and then all of a sudden they either disappear or they are asking how to treat their fish. Come to the hage NADA show and see what discus are supposed to look like. Then you will understand.

-john

[Second Hand Pat]

First I would like to thank you for a very thoughtful reply. I was basing it on the appearance and behavior of this group and what I thought was driving the WC's which was nitrates. I am paying very close attention to my fish, if I need to do things different I will. I am not good at doing things just because someone tells me too. I want to/need to understand. It sounds like mine could be doing fine and then one day it all goes to hell because they get sick. I posted a couple of pics.

I have had some responses that say what I am doing appears fine as long as my fish appear fine. I have other responses where people just make statements without supporting facts. I don't respond well to that.

Thank you

You are welcome and I would encourage you to do some of your own research. This forum is a good place to do that. I would also suggest creating a journal thread of your fish and their progress. You can do that here http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...-Tank-Journals. Also many members here have gone thru the process of keeping discus and/or raising juvies and some have done their research while others have learned thru the school of hard knocks. Up to you to pick your path.
hth,
Pat

[easttech]

Long story short. DOC's

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolved_organic_carbon

and Bioload. Just because you can't see it does not mean stuff is not there. You water is made of of hundreds of compounds and you are checking and focusing on one. So you tell me is that a good enough test? All of us old timers have told you that it is not. They are your fish and you can do what you want to but we have all seen this thousands of times. People tell us how great their fish are doing for a several months and then all of a sudden they either disappear or they are asking how to treat their fish. Come to the hage NADA show and see what discus are supposed to look like. Then you will understand.

-john

Exactly what I was looking for. I will never resist advice based on facts and never suggested I was going to. Great read, thank you for the reply.

[Darcon]

An old breeder, older than the mountains, told me that discus fish are river fish, simply thing about most of us forgotten. And in addition to all of these things that others have written before, discus like clean, fresh water, because it is their natural conditions in nature.

[nc0gnet0]

Most of the advice that has been given you is based on years of experience. It is also an attempt to greatly improve your odds at success. As has already been mentioned, there is a lot more to water quality than an API test kit can provide you.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com/forumd...allenge-(2012)

[raidendex]

While it was a while ago and I may not remember everything completely, I do have a record of my raising of dozen of discus from juveniles to adults or at least teenagers before I sold off the freshwater tank.

At start this was fairly basic system with just some manzanita branches and some poret foam for filtration. I may have done water changes initially every 3 days or so, but pretty quick it was down to one large WC weekly. Water change was drain water out, fill from directly from tap adjusting water temp to be about the same as the tank (I think I kept the tank at 80-81F) and adding some Safe powder to the water as the tank was filling up. Eventually tank became planted and it's possible that I switched to bi-weekly water changes somewhere at that point.

I am in process of recycling my reef tank into freshwater aquarium now and am thinking to do the discus again. So also trying to figure out how to do WCs etc for them. I have a much better filtration system setup for them already and have few more nice toys to work with remaining from the reef tank that will help.

Here are some videos of previous tank with discus if you care to check out progress. Didn't realize until now how long I had discus before I converted to planted tank.

July 8, 2011 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aojmA5nesQY - Day 1 discus in.
July 25, 2011 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJc3IszRbs4
August 27, 2011 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qhmz6Gfam3g
December 19, 2011 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSqfWQhe4lo
March 25, 2012 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iA6_ZZB6RyM
July 14, 2012 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgeHavfiu3g
December 30, 2012 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cw-2YyjfICk

[Willie]

For those of us who have kept discus for a very long time, it's clear that the more water you change, the bigger your discus will grow. I've struggled with doing weekly, sometimes semiweekly, water changes for two decades. Finally, I redid the fish room so that I can have conditioned water for daily water changes. I can change 100% of every discus tank in 2 hours. The difference in the quality of fish I'm keeping is significant.

You still have to get quality stock. You still have to feed quality food. But if they don't get big water changes, you simply cannot get the growth. This is obviously not possible with planted tanks, so you'll need to settle for not getting the maximum potential from your genetics. It's a choice and I know plenty of people who make this choice. For me, my focus is on the fish, not on the other stuff.

Willie

[discuspaul]

For those of us who have kept discus for a very long time, it's clear that the more water you change, the bigger your discus will grow. I've struggled with doing weekly, sometimes semiweekly, water changes for two decades. Finally, I redid the fish room so that I can have conditioned water for daily water changes. I can change 100% of every discus tank in 2 hours. The difference in the quality of fish I'm keeping is significant.

You still have to get quality stock. You still have to feed quality food. But if they don't get big water changes, you simply cannot get the growth. This is obviously not possible with planted tanks, so you'll need to settle for not getting the maximum potential from your genetics. It's a choice and I know plenty of people who make this choice. For me, my focus is on the fish, not on the other stuff.

Willie

Very well and appropriately said, Willie.

[afriend]

I'm a little confused, I see all these posts about people doing 50%-100% wc's daily, some more than 100%. I have 11 3" discus in a discus only tank other than some corys, bushy's and loaches. I keep the tank at 86, and I feed 5 times a day, morning BH, freeze dried tubifex, frozen shrimp or BW, rotate every day, flakes and last feeding is BH.

It is not bare bottom. I vacuum and change 50% twice a week. I test for nitrates and before the WC I have 5-10 ppm's. Why would I need to do more? When people are doing the massive WC's is it because the nitrates are getting to high. What am I missing? If I did more WC's what would I gain a few ppm's in notrates?

I run a sump, with purigen, API nitrate absorb and have a sponge filter in my sump.

I must be missing something.

easttech,

Here's a link that explains why discus need clean tank conditions:


http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-Are-Important

Hope this helps.

Paul

[LizStreithorst]

Willie, you are again the voice of reason.

[DJW]

Yep, I'm using lots of clean, aged, water for angels and rams now too. It makes a big difference. It has been a slow process though... an added pump here, another valve there. I have to make it fun and easy, not a chore.

[s2002]

This is obviously not possible with planted tanks, so you'll need to settle for not getting the maximum potential from your genetics. It's a choice and I know plenty of people who make this choice. For me, my focus is on the fish, not on the other stuff.

Willie

Just out of curiosity, why do you say that big and frequent water changes is not possible with planted tanks? I have a 60 gallon with lots of jungle val and 5 discus. The water changes haven't really affected the jungle vals negatively. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks!

[warblad79]

Just out of curiosity, why do you say that big and frequent water changes is not possible with planted tanks? I have a 60 gallon with lots of jungle val and 5 discus. The water changes haven't really affected the jungle vals negatively. Is there something I'm missing? Thanks!

n
Yes, you're missing the point. The issue was regards to adverse effect to discus not the plants. It's not possible to do large WC to a planted tank because all other stuff inside already occupy the space so only little water can be change.