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Thread: Bought my Discus a Cabin

  1. #31
    Registered Member Larry Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Larry,

    Curious on your choice of a tankless water heater, can I ask why? It's an option I explored a few year ago, a couple of heating and cooling guys advised against it. I am curious how yours works out.

    -Rick
    I was going to go with the tankless because of space considerations and efficiency. I can put a tank heater in but it ends up taking space that could go to a tank, lol. I am very interested in hearing the reasons you were advised against it.
    Larry Bugg

    NADA - Vice President
    Atlanta Area Aquarium Association

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    I work with HVAC guys weekly on projects, what I have found is a majority consensus among Heating and Cooling people regarding tankless is that "tankless heaters are not as reliable as tank heater hot water systems", this is what they all say.
    However, I don't hear about them being called out all the time to repair them either. I think it's a few factors, i)it's relatively new in the HVAC industry ii) most Tech's have little to no experience with them, so they are a little scared to recommend them.
    I do know there are limited people that are qualified to repair them so that could get expensive.
    Moreover, unless you want to do two 120 gallon commercial grade hot water tanks (for infinite hot water) then a tankless would be a great idea.
    I do know in the late winter I will be installing a tankless in my fishroom for the very same reason (infinite hot water!!)
    😀
    When I do I will let everyone know how it goes.
    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Larry,

    Curious on your choice of a tankless water heater, can I ask why? It's an option I explored a few year ago, a couple of heating and cooling guys advised against it. I am curious how yours works out.

    -Rick

  3. #33
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Bugg View Post
    I was going to go with the tankless because of space considerations and efficiency. I can put a tank heater in but it ends up taking space that could go to a tank, lol. I am very interested in hearing the reasons you were advised against it.
    I understand the space considerations. But the efficiency, if I understand your plans on it's use, will be null. I work with heating and cooling contractors on a daily basis, (the company I work for is a mechanical insulator/Environmental Contractor) so any information I post is what I was told by them, and not first hand knowledge.

    On demand (tankless) water heaters are generally more efficient do to the fact they are not constantly reheating a 30-40 gallon tank of water that is currently not in demand. The more they(tankless) are used, the less efficient they become, up to a point in which they actually become less efficient. If I understand your setup correctly, your going to take a tankless hot water heater and essentially add a very large tank (your fish tanks), so you have effectively nullified the whole point of the tankless water heater itself (except for the space part).

    Now, that may be all fine and good, and the space savings still justifies the additional cost for you. But there is one more thing to consider. On demand hot water heaters are designed for intermittent use. There heating elements can be up to 5x+ (in BTU) the size of there tanked water heater counterparts. They need to in order to supply almost instantly and continous hot water.

    So essentially an on demand hot water heater is comparable to a top fuel dragster, designed for going really fast for a 1/4 mile and stopping. If you subject them to more use then they are designed for, that 160,000+ BTU burner/heating element is going to wear things out fairly fast, and you might not be happy having to get a new one every 2 years. This was the biggest concern I came across when discussing my plans with people in the industry.

    -Rick
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 07-17-2016 at 07:38 PM.
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  4. #34
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by MD.David View Post
    I work with HVAC guys weekly on projects, what I have found is a majority consensus among Heating and Cooling people regarding tankless is that "tankless heaters are not as reliable as tank heater hot water systems", this is what they all say.
    However, I don't hear about them being called out all the time to repair them either. I think it's a few factors, i)it's relatively new in the HVAC industry ii) most Tech's have little to no experience with them, so they are a little scared to recommend them.
    I do know there are limited people that are qualified to repair them so that could get expensive.
    Moreover, unless you want to do two 120 gallon commercial grade hot water tanks (for infinite hot water) then a tankless would be a great idea.
    I do know in the late winter I will be installing a tankless in my fishroom for the very same reason (infinite hot water!!)
    ��
    When I do I will let everyone know how it goes.
    There would be no need to have two 120 gallon hot water heaters, you need to remember your only heating the water to 82 degrees, and doing so by mixing hot and cold water.
    Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
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  5. #35
    Registered Member Larry Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Typically hot water heaters are set somewhere between 120 and 150 degrees. My thought was that I don't need water that hot. I ultimately need 82. It looks like I can set a tankless at it's lowest setting which I believe is around 100 and then mix with my cold to achieve 82. Since I would not be running the tankless to it's max then shouldn't I be able to get a decent life out of the unit? Lol, I don't work in heating and cooling so I may be way off base. On another note since you are in heating and cooling can you tell me what you think about the wall mount heat pump units? In my part of Georgia, heat pumps are routinely used since we don't typically say really cold for extended periods of time. Again, like with the water heater, I'm not looking to maintain a temp normal for our homes but rather somewhere in the low 80's.
    Larry Bugg

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    Atlanta Area Aquarium Association

  6. #36
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    FWIW, the issue i have heard on tankless water heaters is that if you have hard water running into them they fail quickly as the minerals precipitate out fast and clog them up. and there isn't much room for the limescale to build up compared to a tank water heater that is exposed to the same hard water.

    when i read the warranty on the one we have, it specifically called out any failures due to minerals in the water and related issues as excluded.

    nice find on the building, looking forward to build updates.

  7. #37
    Registered Member Larry Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
    FWIW, the issue i have heard on tankless water heaters is that if you have hard water running into them they fail quickly as the minerals precipitate out fast and clog them up. and there isn't much room for the limescale to build up compared to a tank water heater that is exposed to the same hard water.

    when i read the warranty on the one we have, it specifically called out any failures due to minerals in the water and related issues as excluded.

    nice find on the building, looking forward to build updates.
    Soft water here.
    Larry Bugg

    NADA - Vice President
    Atlanta Area Aquarium Association

  8. #38
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    also FWIW, when i was reading about ours, there was a model option that let you keep it running all the time to keep hot water always on tap. it cycled the water through the system somehow.

    the way ours works is it needs to run for about 1 minute before it decides to start heating the water, then it will produce hot water for as long as there is demand.

    probably a lame idea, but i was wondering if you could use the hot water heater as a heater, running the tubing through the tanks like a old home radiator, or like they use it to heat homes when they put the pex tubing in the floor.

    i know a guy who heats his garage with pex in his concrete floor and hot water running through it in a closed system. if he can keep a garage warm in pennsylvania like that, seems like it could work to heat fish tanks, or just to heat the whole room to a cozy 82. i'm guessing he probably uses a different model water heater, than one made to heat sink water.

    if interested, i can ask him for more details.

  9. #39
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    I'm not 100% sure, but I think setting the temperature so low on the tankless water heater will lead to a lot of fluctuations in water temp. I'm not sure how the gas fired tankless hot water heaters burners are set-up to function, whether they are cycled full on/off to achieve desired temp, or if the flame itself is regulated like that of a gas stove. I will ask. Electric was never an option for me as the main intent was to reduce electricity, which is billed on a tiered rate, and use gas, as gas charges remain constant regardless of units used.

    As for heat pumps, I have no idea, I never asked. They are not that common in my area. I do know that my power vented hot water heater (tanked) has the ability to also run a space heater (ala a boiler like setup). As to if this would be enough to heat your fish house to 82 I am not sure, but it's an interesting thing to check into.

    -Rick
    Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
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  10. #40
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    I understand the space considerations. But the efficiency, if I understand your plans on it's use, will be null. I work with heating and cooling contractors on a daily basis, (the company I work for is a mechanical insulator/Environmental Contractor) so any information I post is what I was told by them, and not first hand knowledge.

    On demand (tankless) water heaters are generally more efficient do to the fact they are not constantly reheating a 30-40 gallon tank of water that is currently not in demand. The more they(tankless) are used, the less efficient they become, up to a point in which they actually become less efficient. If I understand your setup correctly, your going to take a tankless hot water heater and essentially add a very large tank (your fish tanks), so you have effectively nullified the whole point of the tankless water heater itself (except for the space part).

    Now, that may be all fine and good, and the space savings still justifies the additional cost for you. But there is one more thing to consider. On demand hot water heaters are designed for intermittent use. There heating elements can be up to 5x+ (in BTU) the size of there tanked water heater counterparts. They need to in order to supply almost instantly and continous hot water.

    So essentially an on demand hot water heater is comparable to a top fuel dragster, designed for going really fast for a 1/4 mile and stopping. If you subject them to more use then they are designed for, that 160,000+ BTU burner/heating element is going to wear things out fairly fast, and you might not be happy having to get a new one every 2 years. This was the biggest concern I came across when discussing my plans with people in the industry.

    -Rick
    not saying your wrong, but the tankless water heater i have works like crap for intermittent use. so much so that our family has gotten into the practice of wasting water as not to confuse the the heater and getting cold water sandwiches. e.g. if brushing teeth, water stays running, because if we turn it off and on just when needed, the time it takes the heater to realize we want hot water, we never get hot water. but once its running, it runs fine for multiple demands at once, like dishwasher and shower at same time. this has been the experience of others i talked to that have the tankless heaters. i have a natural gas tankless heater for the whole house. not once of those faucet specific instant water heaters.

  11. #41
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    I'm not 100% sure, but I think setting the temperature so low on the tankless water heater will lead to a lot of fluctuations in water temp. I'm not sure how the gas fired tankless hot water heaters burners are set-up to function, whether they are cycled full on/off to achieve desired temp, or if the flame itself is regulated like that of a gas stove. I will ask. Electric was never an option for me as the main intent was to reduce electricity, which is billed on a tiered rate, and use gas, as gas charges remain constant regardless of units used.

    As for heat pumps, I have no idea, I never asked. They are not that common in my area. I do know that my power vented hot water heater (tanked) has the ability to also run a space heater (ala a boiler like setup). As to if this would be enough to heat your fish house to 82 I am not sure, but it's an interesting thing to check into.

    -Rick
    i have set ours to different temps, i have it to 120 now. i haven't noticed it cycling, once it is running (which takes it about a minute to produces once demand is present) it stays running until demand is met.
    i just assumed lower temp setting meant less flame inside the unit. but that could be wrong.

  12. #42
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Larry, hvac, if you mean one of the Mitsubishi ductless through the wall heat pump/ac units, my father in law installed 2 of them, is very happy with them, but they aren't cheap.

  13. #43
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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  14. #44
    Registered Member Larry Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Thanks for posting Rick. I did notice that the first link was written in 2008. Didn't see a date on the 2nd but it seemed to be about the same since they refer to tankless being new. It would seem to me that a lot of advances have been made in the last 8 years but maybe not. They talk about installation being difficult and expensive and I've read a lot of reviews from people that talk about how easy it was.

    You have me thinking and I will look around a lot more before making a decision but I still feel that the application of using one in a fish room is so different than trying to run a washing machine or taking a shower is so different that the info presented may not fit. As I said before I don't have a background for this so I may be way off base. They did mention that electric tankless are more efficient and that is what I would be using.
    Larry Bugg

    NADA - Vice President
    Atlanta Area Aquarium Association

  15. #45
    Registered Member Larry Bugg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Bought my Discus a Cabin

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
    Larry, hvac, if you mean one of the Mitsubishi ductless through the wall heat pump/ac units, my father in law installed 2 of them, is very happy with them, but they aren't cheap.
    Something like this.

    https://www.amazon.com/Frigidaire-FF...mp+window+unit
    Larry Bugg

    NADA - Vice President
    Atlanta Area Aquarium Association

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