Can a discus be stunted and still round?

[Ryan925]

People raise discus for all sorts of different reasons. Some want to have a pretty fish tank in their living space, with nice gravel, nice plants, etc. Some want to breed discus and sell fry. Others want to produce show specimen for competition. If you go with option 1 or option 2, then your fish will not be as big and nice as going for option 3. Does that mean you are stunting your fish? It's a matter of degree. With option 1, you'll be lucky to get 5" discus. With option 2, 6" discus are common. With option 3, you can get 6 1/2" to 8" fish. You see people do that on this forum and elsewhere.

The fact is that the fish in the first picture looks like it has potential to grow more. The second and third fish have stopped growing, as you can tell by the ratio of the eyes to the forehead. But they look like happy and healthy fish. It's not reasonable to do option 1 and get option 3 fish.

A happy hobbyist is someone who has clear objectives and clear expectations. I know I am, Willie

2nd and 3rd pic are same fish. 2nd pic is July 3rd pic is June. I can see this fish noticeably fattening up.

Thanks so much for your input. I absolutely agree. I am already plotting my next endeavor which is much different. I'd like to grow some juvies towards the "text book" discus then move to a very large show tank. Something like a dozen or more of a single species or half and half of 2.

For now I am pleased with the "look" of my fish though a few may be small. If they remain round and colorful and most importantly healthy then I am satisfied.

I want a show piece that my family and I can enjoy. With that in mind its been a success. My son loves it and I find my dad visiting just to pull a chair up in front of the tank and watch them as he enjoys a cold beer.

Heres 2 of the smalleys with a couple over their larger tank mates.

Sorry for poor photo they obviously always want to face front when I'm near. 622201618584.jpg

[MarktheShark3]

The Discus I keep has attained a length of around 5" and is eating well and not diseased. The fish is in a high-light aquarium with nitrate and phosphorous dosing along with co2 injection and weekly to bi-weekly water changes. Only issue I have noticed is it is very shy.

According to the discussion set forth here, my fish should be unwell/stunted. I'm really confused. I think some Discus must be the exception to the rule?

[Ryan925]

The Discus I keep has attained a length of around 5" and is eating well and not diseased. The fish is in a high-light aquarium with nitrate and phosphorous dosing along with co2 injection and weekly to bi-weekly water changes. Only issue I have noticed is it is very shy.

According to the discussion set forth here, my fish should be unwell/stunted. I'm really confused. I think some Discus must be the exception to the rule?

There are exceptions to every rule. My smaller ones, though aren't stunted, may always be small. I'm ok with that.

The guidelines for discus keeping are to give optimum conditions to receive the most from your fish. Can they be kept in less than ideal conditions and thrive? Possible but not likely.

I'm happy with what I have but believe that my next go will be very different.

Id like to grow out a group of juvies" the right way" then transfer them to a large show tank when they are ready. I've learned so much from reading here and from experience.

[MarktheShark3]

There are exceptions to every rule. My smaller ones, though aren't stunted, may always be small. I'm ok with that.

The guidelines for discus keeping are to give optimum conditions to receive the most from your fish. Can they be kept in less than ideal conditions and thrive? Possible but not likely.

I'm happy with what I have but believe that my next go will be very different.

Id like to grow out a group of juvies" the right way" then transfer them to a large show tank when they are ready. I've learned so much from reading here and from experience.

The Discus you have look happy and I would say you are doing the best you can for them. I think this concept of creating ideal conditions is akin to perfectionism almost. While theres nothing wrong with perfectionism, it can be tiring and unnecessary some times.

[Filip]

The Discus I keep has attained a length of around 5" and is eating well and not diseased. The fish is in a high-light aquarium with nitrate and phosphorous dosing along with co2 injection and weekly to bi-weekly water changes. Only issue I have noticed is it is very shy.

According to the discussion set forth here, my fish should be unwell/stunted. I'm really confused. I think some Discus must be the exception to the rule?

Your discus might have been twice as big as it is now (guessing 4 inch discus ) given the perfect conditions.
Then again , if he/she was genneticly small discus , aka a runt he would still ended up 4-5 inch no matter what you did .
The point , like Ryan said is to give your best for the fish and try to use their full god given potential for growth and strength. You'll always end up with a runt or two in every raised discus batch anyway.

[Ryan925]

Your discus might have been twice as big as it is now (guessing 4 inch discus ) given the perfect conditions.
Then again , if he/she was genneticly small discus , aka a runt he would still ended up 4-5 inch no matter what you did .
The point , like Ryan said is to give your best for the fish and try to use their full god given potential for growth and strength. You'll always end up with a runt or two in every raised discus batch anyway.

I firmly believe its a mixture of having slower growing fish (runts) as well as less than ideal conditions. Not that I have kept them in poor conditions however not ideal. Since removing a lot of plants and making some changes I have noticed more growth in these smaller guys. Maybe not so much in length but definitely in thickness. I think I may have been on the under feeding side of things as well. I have also increased feeding regiment.

Since rescaping I imo my tank is much cleaner. When I do a thorough vac of the gravel I have very little debris to suck up. After removing the large number of plants and vac'ing daily there was a or of stuff being sucked up.

Tank is much cleaner now which means water quality is much better.

I was always worried about over feeding so may have not fed enough. My hope is for the smaller guys to grow some more even though they may never reach their potential. I can see the larger ones are still growing as they start to leap frog each other.

Again their color and shape give myself and my family pleasure. Watching them gracefully swim throughout the tank and interact with us is satisfying.

I agree it's all about expectations. As long as they are happy and healthy I consider this endeavor a success.

I had a very bad experience my first time with discus. This time I have been satisfied.

The next go at it will be geared more towards growing them to fill potential.

Many thanks to all the members here and all the feedback

[MarktheShark3]

What aspect of frequent water changing induces faster growth? Is it the replenishment of calcium (involved in strong bone integrity and growth) that is helping?

[Ryan925]

What aspect of frequent water changing induces faster growth? Is it the replenishment of calcium (involved in strong bone integrity and growth) that is helping?

I believe it's more for the immeasurables. I'm sure the more veteran discus keepers can give more detail. There is much more to "water quality" than we test for. Discus are much more sensitive to this than most fish.

I must admit I thought with a planted tank and 3.5"-4" discus I could get away with less. I couldn't be more wrong.

Although my water perameters were always acceptable I can see a big difference since I have made my changes.

I've removed the majority of my plants and have increase my frequency of WCs. I see the difference in appearance and behavior of my fish no doubt.

[Filip]

What aspect of frequent water changing induces faster growth? Is it the replenishment of calcium (involved in strong bone integrity and growth) that is helping?

Discus are less tolerant to heterotrophic bacteria and pathogens that live and feed of DOCs(decomposed and disolved organics)n our aquarium.
That's why we perfform almost daily cleaning tank walls, siphon sand (if there is one ), keep filter materials almost debris free and finally change a lot of water .
Remineralization like you mentioned is also an important aspect of the WCs.

[MarktheShark3]

Discus are less tolerant to heterotrophic bacteria and pathogens that live and feed of DOCs(decomposed and disolved organics)n our aquarium.

Thats really interesting. What i've attributed to intolerance/disease over the last 8 years is too much of cleaned filter system and environment. For instance, in the context of my Koi Pond, if the filter system acquires a lot of DOC's and I take actions to remove those DOC's through syphoning and doing a minor squeeze of the filter media that would catch the DOC's (in my case this is filter wool), I almost certainly have issues with a rise in total ammonia levels as I've dislodged or removed the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter colonies from the filter media. Based on these earlier experiences, I infrequently clean the filter media in my Discus aquariums as I would be reducing the filter medias ability to reduce ammonia and nitrite. The Discus I have doesn't seem to mind at all.

I think the only way to do frequent cleaning regimes and avoid an ammonia disaster would be to feed and stock lightly which is presumably what Discus keepers do?

[Filip]

Thats really interesting. What i've attributed to intolerance/disease over the last 8 years is too much of cleaned filter system and environment. For instance, in the context of my Koi Pond, if the filter system acquires a lot of DOC's and I take actions to remove those DOC's through syphoning and doing a minor squeeze of the filter media that would catch the DOC's (in my case this is filter wool), I almost certainly have issues with a rise in total ammonia levels as I've dislodged or removed the nitrosomonas and nitrobacter colonies from the filter media. Based on these earlier experiences, I infrequently clean the filter media in my Discus aquariums as I would be reducing the filter medias ability to reduce ammonia and nitrite. The Discus I have doesn't seem to mind at all.

I think the only way to do frequent cleaning regimes and avoid an ammonia disaster would be to feed and stock lightly which is presumably what Discus keepers do?

Wool or prefilter sponges are mechanical filtration. For bio filtration there are other types of materials with sufficient surface area for nitrosomonas and nitrobacter to inhabit . Bio filter should only be rinsed in the same aquarium water in order to keep Beneficial bacteria alive and unharmed , and mechanical filtration can be replaced or washed more agressivly under tapwater, cause their main purpose is to catch poop/ dirt and not biofiltration.

If you think that rotting fish poop (DOCs ) in your filter or anywhere else in your tank is beneficial in any way for your fish , sorry but you are dead wrong.

And on the contrary , experienced discus breeders / sellers ussualy overfeed their fish to accelerate the growth and also overstock their tanks in order to optimize their profits.
They just keep tanks sterily clean and change 100% water multiple times a day when needed.

[MarktheShark3]

Wool or prefilter sponges are mechanical filtration. For bio filtration there are other types of materials with sufficient surface area for nitrosomonas and nitrobacter to inhabit . Bio filter should only be rinsed in the same aquarium water in order to keep Beneficial bacteria alive and unharmed , and mechanical filtration can be replaced or washed more agressivly under tapwater, cause their main purpose is to catch poop/ dirt and not biofiltration.

If you think that rotting fish poop (DOCs ) in your filter or anywhere else in your tank is beneficial in any way for your fish , sorry but you are dead wrong.

The removal of the filter wool caused an increase in my pond ammonia levels. Thats fact. So while the main role of the filter wool was to catch faeces, it also clearly had a role in the nitrate cycle as well. If it played no role at all, the several methods for which I tested for total ammonia after cleaning, namely, the use of a Seneye ammonia sensor, a Seachem ammonia card and an API Master Kit ammonia test, would have showed a negative result for ammonia.

As for poop in the water column, I suggest you go for a swim in a pond, you'll find lots of it alongside happy and healthy inhabitants.

Its no surprise that Discus keepers would have to do 100% water changes a day since if they keep disrupting the nitrosomonas/nitrobacter filter bacteria potential for ammonia and nitrite to be converted to nitrates.

The Discus I keep are living proof that they don't require 100% water changes on a daily basis. The only issue I have had with my Discus relates to its genetically acquired bad eyesight.

[Kyla]

i use fx5 filters and they contain sponges and bio balls. i know some ppl that rinse their sponges under the tap, but i rinse mine in tank water along with the bio balls because im pretty sure that even tho they r meant for mechanical filtration, bacteria tend to accumulate on them as well. if this is so, and if bacteria only grow to match the bio load, rinsing my sponges in tap water may compromise the BB on them and thus reduce the total overall #of BB in the tank and lead to spikes in ammonia/nitrite.

my thoughts re: the filter wool would be - if u remove and replace it more frequently, before there is an opportunity for BB to establish themselves on it, that may prevent the spikes u see because then the BB should establish themselves elsewhere. if, on the otherhand, u find that replacing it frequently results in a consistently higher ammonia level, this would lead me to believe u might not have enough media surface available for the BB to colonize.

[Clawhammer]

As for poop in the water column, I suggest you go for a swim in a pond, you'll find lots of it alongside happy and healthy inhabitants.

Its no surprise that Discus keepers would have to do 100% water changes a day since if they keep disrupting the nitrosomonas/nitrobacter filter bacteria potential for ammonia and nitrite to be converted to nitrates.

Discus live in the Amazon, not a pond. The Amazon flows 60 million gallons a second.

The water changes have nothing to do with removing ammonia. Im thinking more reading and less typing is in order for you.

[Kyla]

2nd and 3rd pic are same fish. 2nd pic is July 3rd pic is June. I can see this fish noticeably fattening up.

Thanks so much for your input. I absolutely agree. I am already plotting my next endeavor which is much different. I'd like to grow some juvies towards the "text book" discus then move to a very large show tank. Something like a dozen or more of a single species or half and half of 2.

For now I am pleased with the "look" of my fish though a few may be small. If they remain round and colorful and most importantly healthy then I am satisfied.

I want a show piece that my family and I can enjoy. With that in mind its been a success. My son loves it and I find my dad visiting just to pull a chair up in front of the tank and watch them as he enjoys a cold beer.

Heres 2 of the smalleys with a couple over their larger tank mates.

Sorry for poor photo they obviously always want to face front when I'm near. 622201618584.jpg

i sure love that red one on the left