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Thread: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

  1. #1
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    This is a link to my first post on Simply and it's how my tank looked when I became a member: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-few-questions
    This is my most recent post and how my tank presently looks: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...127735-Purigen
    I was inspired by this thread to show my system: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...ee-those-sumps

    I run something pretty close to the Herbie Method. I've labelled all photos to try to make the plumbing obvious:
    A: Return Pipe
    B: Full Syphon Down Pipe
    C: Trickle through Durso Standpipe /Emergency Overflow


    I need a quiet system because the tank is in the Master Bedroom. This system is dead silent, except for the return pump, which I'm presently trying to upgrade to something quieter, any help would be appreciated: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...-M1&highlight=

    The only recommendation I would make to others who intend to use a similar system is that on the Full Syphon Down Pipe, I got lucky, and full flow matches my desired sump flow perfectly, so I can have the valve at full, because I can set the flow to trickle through the Durso Standpipe with the valve on the Return Pipe (which effectively limits the flow down the Durso). I would ordinarily recommend 2 valves on the Full Syphon Down Pipe, one to limit the flow (probably a gate valve) and one to shut off the syphon during water changes (probably a ball valve). That way you can leave the gate valve set perfectly to trickle through the Durso at the correct flow, and shut off the syphon with the ball valve whenever you need to, leaving it primed to restart after the water change /maintenance.

    The only thing I really don't like about my sump and would redesign if I had my time again, is that I would like to be able to remove the filter sock without dismantling pipes. So I would make a down chamber which overflowed into the sock instead.

    In my sump I wanted to combine the benefits of a 100 micron filter sock, ceramic media like Marine Pure and Bio Balls, so I adapted a waterfall into a trickle tray. I've also recently added Purigen and I'm trying to get Pothos started.

    I'll also include some information on my water changes.

    Here's my system:
    Sump1.jpgpurigen in sump.jpgWaterfall.jpgPower.jpgSyphon Down.jpgSyphon into sump.jpgDown pipes side view.jpgDown pipes.jpgweir.jpgPothos1.jpg

  2. #2
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    For interest I'll include some Water Change and Maintenance pictures.

    I have removable planted logs to make it easy to vacuum. Some of the little things I have that make life easier are a shut off valve for the refill tubs, and an L fitting for the 7000 Lph return pump to get to the bottom of the refill containers.

    I also put a picture of the way that I do quick daily vacuums straight into the sump.

    No Hood.jpgRemoved Logs.jpgVacuum WC.jpgWater Storage heat and aerate.jpgShut off.jpgShut Off Position.jpgReturn Pump Fittings.jpgHoses.jpgDaily Vacuum.jpg

  3. #3
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    Hey Jason, read through some of your posts. nice progess.

    1. for your pump noise. what helped me was sitting the pump on a foam sponge to isolate the the physical contact and noise transfer/amplifying effect of the sump and cabinet
    2. i run herbie, i just turn off the pump and let the display tank drain into sump. is there a reason you don't want to do this?
    3. how did you connect the garden hose to the vinyl hose?

    p.s. i gave up on filter socks. plugged too fast for me. i have one now that i cut big slots in it to act as a diffusor

  4. #4
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    Thanks for the response Jack,

    My current Resun S-3000 return pump has suction cups on the base that dampen the vibration. I don’t think a foam sponge will be compatible with the suction cups underneath? I surround the pump with filter foam to dampen immediate noise and vibrations (I included a photo). I also use high density foam to dampen fixtures on the return pipe (as shown in the attached photo).

    I bought my tank second hand, it was exactly the size I wanted and could fit through the window it needed to come through, the weir was on the correct side, it's also a tall tank which I also wanted, so I got lucky. The guy had it set up with the return going through the weir, where a Herbie syphon really ought to go. Not knowing anything about systems, I copied his plumbing, but the Durso was very noisy. So I had a think, and decided to do something like a Herbie method. I left the return pipe going through the weir and passing over the tank, because I would have to pass something over the side, either the return or the Syphon, and this way the return isn't visible from the far side of the tank which is facing the entry to the Master bedroom. And I put the syphon over the side of the tank where the weir is, because it faces a corner of the room and is less visible.

    Long story short, I need to prime my syphon because it passes up over the side of the tank. I prime it by sucking on the flexible tube, the flexible tube is handy because I can pass it out to my mouth if I ever need to start it. So having a ball valve shut off is handy because it leaves the syphon pipe primed when I shut off the return pump, and in normal use I never have to manually restart it, I just turn the ball valve back on.

    I think showing my system is handy for people who would like to run the Herbie system, who possibly only have a Durso Standpipe, but don't have room in their weir to drill a second hole. It gives an option for those people, which I've seen loads of systems set up like that, and they're quite noisy. I just want to make the point that I would use a gate valve as well, because that way you can regulate the syphon flow and shut off the syphon while it's still primed with the ball valve (without having to re-regulate the syphon flow every time). I hope I can be helpful here.. maybe you can call it the Burgo, ha ha.

    I made a photo of where I joined the flexible tube to the PVC with a hydroponics clip (that's how I clamp the Vacuum tube to the extension too and dump it down the shower in the on suite). But now I realise you're talking about filling the aging barrel. There's a garden hose just under our window in the on suite, which I just pull through the window and clip to the shut off fitting pictured, and stick it in the refill barrel, it locks in nicely under the lid. I wanted to show how easy and cheap it was to make the shut off fitting, and how I use it.

    I use a lot of black heat pipe insulation as noise and vibration dampener which is very effective, especially around drilled holes in glass lids where the pvc pipes pass through, and on the return pipe which would otherwise vibrate on surfaces. I have lids on everything, which reduce noise, but they can cause echos and hums if you don't seal them, and the heat pipe insulation does a good job of covering holes that otherwise make noise.

    I also install my bulk heads backwards so that I can uninstall them without cutting anything. I had to make a special tool to tighten them inside the weir.

    Return Pump.jpgDampener.jpghose join.jpgbulk heads.jpg
    Last edited by JBurgo; 02-13-2017 at 04:53 AM.

  5. #5
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    your 3rd photo, is that 1 pipe for overflow, and one return there? so you don't have 4 pipes? like i have here: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/attach...3&d=1454775622

    i would still try putting the pump on sponge, it won't hurt the suction cups, what you have surrounding it looks like what i set mine on. i was surprised the noise dampening that had.

    backward bulkheads: interesting, i'd never thought of that. i just hope i don't have to mess with them regardless, it is really hard reaching around under a tank!!!

  6. #6
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    I'll try your sponge suggestion, I'll remove my suction cups and see how it sounds, but I've already sent back my unimpressive Tunze Silence and traded it up for a Vortex M1, I hope I'm not throwing good money after bad!

    The bulk heads backwards come in handy if you ever have to move your tank, saves you re-doing all your plumbing too.

    The 3rd photo is of the Syphon Down and the Durso Overflow Down, the syphon has the flexible tubing attached. Looks like you have 4 pipes because you have 2 Return Pipes, to spread the flow to both sides of the tank, considering you have a central weir. I only have one return pipe at the far side of the tank.

    I made some illustrations because I know my tangle of pipes is probably confusing. The second illustration is my suggestion that I called the Burgo Method, which I think is a really good solution for people who have only one hole drilled in a small sump, who want to quiet down a Durso Standpipe. It's a way to get the Herbie method going without rebuilding the sump and drilling another hole. You can install it as a small modification to an existing system.

    If I had my time again I'd set up a true Herbie Method for my tank. My system has ended up a bit of a compromise because of how it was set up to begin with by the tank's original owner. But it does hide the pipes better this way so I'm not unhappy with it.

    Personally, I think the Bean Animal is overkill. I'd like someone to explain how it's better than the Herbie Method when combined with a Durso Standpipe? The Herbie only requires 2 pipes instead of the Bean Animal's 3 pipes. The Bean Animal has 2 emergency overflows, which to me seems to just add additional unsightly piping and take up valuable space for nothing. If my syphon were ever to get blocked, my system would revert to the standard Durso Standpipe and make a bit more noise to alert me, same as the Bean Animal.

    My Tank.jpgBurgo Metthod.jpg

  7. #7
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Jack L View Post
    p.s. i gave up on filter socks. plugged too fast for me. i have one now that i cut big slots in it to act as a diffusor
    A lot of people say this, but for me they're the only thing effective enough. Every time I use any other filter media I miss too much and the sump gets filthy fast. Here's a pic of mine after 3 days when I change it. I just turn them inside out like this and hose it off with a pressure fitting. Takes about 30 seconds, then I alternate it with a dry one.

    I think it's possible that I get a lot of waste from the surface of the sand before it breaks down and passes through the Sock. I vacuum once a day after the evening feed. My Return Pump isn't that fast and I only turn over the tank about 4 times an hour, 600L at 2400Lph I estimate.

    How does that filter sock compare to other people's filter socks after that time? Are yours clogged by then?

    Filter Socks.jpg

  8. #8
    Registered Member Woodduck's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    4" are too small. 7 x 16 is much better.
    Over 50 years in fish and it still feels brand new!! Woodduck

  9. #9
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by Woodduck View Post
    4" are too small. 7 x 16 is much better.
    My filter socks are 13" long, in the photo they're turned inside out for cleaning. The photo shows the dirtiest they get before cleaning, so I think they're suitable to the task. If I could get larger in there I would do it though, if not just because they would be a little easier to turn inside out to clean. If you have a look at my sump, my system came second hand, and the space on the down section was too small, I had to mount the sock high and overlap it.. so I could only just squeeze the 4" in unfortunately.

  10. #10
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    My Vectra M1 came yesterday and I installed it today. I have to say: `I am stoked with it!`. On my system, where I'm running it slower than 1/2 it's capacity, she's quiet baby.

    I can hear it within a distance of about 1 meter with the cupboard door open. I can hear it from about a foot away with the cupboard door closed. I was sitting trying to listen for it a few meters away (with all the doors shut to block out ambient noise) and I noticed that I could hear it faintly `underneath the sound of the ringing of my own ears`! It was at that point that I realized I was trying too hard and accepted that it was pretty darn good.

    One of the additional benefits is the vibrations are next to nothing. The pipes that I've previously mounted insulated on foam to stop vibration going into the tank and frame, just don't vibrate. I have to feel for the vibration on the pipes as carefully as I have to listen for the sound of the pump. I've always wondered how the fish go feeling the vibrations in the water, which is one of the reasons I've tried to insulate the tank and frame as much as possible from vibrations. They won't have that now, so I think it might mean happier fish too.

    The instructions and calibration are a pain. You can't just plug it in and go, or you could, but the minimum default setting was faster than I could use. They need to set it up so that people who want to, can have the no fuss default that just goes from 0 to 100. I tried to set it up so that the minimum setting was my normal sump speed and the maximum setting was a faster setting so that I could have a surge through the tank, but it wouldn't accept it. It's such a pain to set up that I just gave up and set it on a single speed where I would normally have it, which is all it would let me do (I think because I'm running it below it's default lowest setting).

    I don't care about all the other bells and whistles, I just wanted a quiet pump, and I certainly have that now. I can't even hear my entire tank from laying in my bed in the same room at night. I have to get used to it because my heart still skips a beat when I walk into the room and hear silence, I get an `Oh no, the fish!` moment, then I look at the weir and It's at the top, and in the back of my head I think.. `I'd better turn up the flow a bit, there doesn't seem to be much`.

    @Jack I tried mounting the Resun on the foam block like you said, actually it did do something, it seemed to make the vibrations a little better and `changed the sound` a bit, probably not much quieter as far as the pump noise, but I'd say it took out a bit of the hum. I would have kept it as opposed to the suction cups. Except of course for the new pump.

    Return on Sponge.jpgVectra M1.jpgVectra M1 Controller.jpgAdjustments.jpg

  11. #11
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    Overnight, a couple of interesting things:

    1. The sound in the middle of the night is equivalent to having the bedroom door open and hearing the fridge running in another room.

    2. At night there's a faint glow at the back of the tank (in the middle between the stumps) from the controller under the tank. I wonder if this will be good for the fish, to help them not spook at night (not that they do), but as a moonlight setting? Or if it's bad, because it may cause them not to sleep properly? Not sure. Pity you can't deactivate the LEDs.

    3. This morning my wife spotted why the controller wasn't adjusting, she saw that the light was slowly cycling between light green and dark green. Somehow I'd accidentally got it on Speed Lock, by pressing and holding the Mode button. I'll be done for if I lose that instruction booklet!

    I made a picture of the `normal Herbie Method`, to include in my previous post ^^, but I can't edit that, so I'll put it here. The reason is: The Herbie Method is what I would recommend for a silent system, and it's much more practical than how my tank is set up (you never have to worry about breaking the syphon). And if people are looking at this thread for `how to make your sump system quiet`, then this is actually the missing component. And the drawing is consistent and comparable to my other drawings (I'm thinking there will be some people reading this who may not know what the Herbie Method is).

    Burgo Metthod[1].jpgHerbie Method.jpg

  12. #12
    Homesteader RogueDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    I leave a night light on in the room every evening, one of those that turns on automatically.
    Lifting dictionaries literally strengthens your muscles.

  13. #13
    Registered Member JBurgo's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    I cleaned the sump sponges out today (circled in red). It's been a month since the last thorough sump clean. The amount of crud in the sponges was astounding. I wish I took a photo of the crud, but I didn't think of it. It was a yellowy brown and a bit clumpy.

    They're course bio sponges, but some of my reasoning for having them is to inhibit movement of any debris through the sump, hopefully concentrating in areas where the blue dots are, to be easily syphoned. I want to avoid the Marine Pure media from getting clogged with particles.

    I've been using a 100 micron filter sock and changing it out every 3 days. I'm pretty sure the crud in the sponges is bacteria and the associated waste generated within the sump.

    Am I better off getting rid of the sponges entirely (I know reefers think of them as `sludge factories`), or are they doing their job and actually capturing crud, which I should just clean more regularly? At the moment I'm leaning towards just turfing them.

    sponges.jpg

  14. #14
    Registered Member Hart24601's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    I would get rid of sponges, get a bucket head wet/dry vac and makes cleaning the sump super easy. I have 4 or 5 marine pure blocks in a couple sumps and they have never had issues with detritus clogging. With the sponges gone that detritus will settle on bottom and a bucket head vac will suck it out easy! Even better is to keep the detritus in circulation so the socks pick it up on the next pass.

    I think my filter socks generally last about three days, but I run two socks on each sump, so that helps them last and they look far darker than yours when I pull them!

    I wouldn't worry about the light hurting the fish, I run moonlights and on my growout I ran lights 24hr a day so could have auto feeder go at night. Saw nothing but positive things there.

    Can you line the sump with sound absorbing panels?

  15. #15
    Registered Member Jack L's Avatar
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    Default Re: 8 foot Wild Tank and Sump plus Water Changes

    Quote Originally Posted by JBurgo View Post
    A lot of people say this, but for me they're the only thing effective enough. Every time I use any other filter media I miss too much and the sump gets filthy fast. Here's a pic of mine after 3 days when I change it. I just turn them inside out like this and hose it off with a pressure fitting. Takes about 30 seconds, then I alternate it with a dry one.

    I think it's possible that I get a lot of waste from the surface of the sand before it breaks down and passes through the Sock. I vacuum once a day after the evening feed. My Return Pump isn't that fast and I only turn over the tank about 4 times an hour, 600L at 2400Lph I estimate.

    How does that filter sock compare to other people's filter socks after that time? Are yours clogged by then?

    Filter Socks.jpg
    when i was feeding heavy, mine were way more dirty than that and all the way up to the top they were dirty. after a couple days they overflowed.
    it took me 2 washes with clorox to get them clean.

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