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Thread: 9-bar x 14-bar

  1. #16
    Homesteader RogueDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    At the risk of hijacking my own thread, here's some picks of apparently bar-less fry I've gotten from the pair. A couple even have the ss patterning developing.IMG_2897.jpgIMG_2904.jpgIMG_2917.jpgIMG_2925.jpg

    Is this some BD in there?
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  2. #17
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    I suppose its possible Rick, but its pretty consistent if this happens.It would also basically lend credence to my idea that more than one gene is involved in what we term "Snakeskins".



    Heres one for you. If your assumption /theory of lethal homozygous 14 bar were a bust, how else would you explain what we see in Snakeskin Genetics?

    al
    As you know Al, I have always hated Mendelian genetics as a way to explain what we see in discus. It doesn't not allow for co-dominance and penetrance, among other things. Discus certainly are not binary. Things really get wonky in domestics when you start dealing with multiple mutations and their interaction.

    I am going to have to think a bit on your question about the lethal homozygous gene theory. I just know it being recessive doesn't fit.
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  3. #18
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    Oh boy Steve now you have done it... You introduced genetics that clearly shows a new allele that is selectively lethal to the Bars on Snakeskin Discus! lol Seriously though, are these from the same pair that I got some fry from?

    al
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  4. #19
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDiscus View Post
    At the risk of hijacking my own thread, here's some picks of apparently bar-less fry I've gotten from the pair. A couple even have the ss patterning developing.

    Is this some BD in there?
    My guess would be yes, and the BD gene included in the mix really makes things complicated, as we are no longer just tracking one mutation and the combinations get really hard to track.
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  5. #20
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDiscus View Post
    At the risk of hijacking my own thread, here's some picks of apparently bar-less fry I've gotten from the pair. A couple even have the ss patterning developing.

    Is this some BD in there?
    If I might add, barless fish are really a result of the lack of the production of melanin. Several mutations can effect melanin production, BD, Golden, SW, even albino. But the bars are still present and can be seen at a young age before the fish start to develop color. So whenever you add a mutation that effects melanin production, you need to analyze the 14 bar to 9 bar ratio early on.

    So I can have a SW SS or a Golden SS (very weak strain btw), and not have any bars visible (adult)

    Now, I would like to add, and this is just my personal opinion, BD is a gene that is a real wild card in terms of co-dominance and penetrance.
    Last edited by nc0gnet0; 02-25-2017 at 05:30 PM.
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  6. #21
    Homesteader RogueDiscus's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Oh boy Steve now you have done it... You introduced genetics that clearly shows a new allele that is selectively lethal to the Bars on Snakeskin Discus! lol Seriously though, are these from the same pair that I got some fry from?

    al
    Yes. Due to some areas of inconsistent or more solid blue patterning on the female, I suspect she has some BD in her background.IMG_2299.jpg
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  7. #22
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    Quote Originally Posted by nc0gnet0 View Post
    Now, let me bounce something else off you, and I am just thinking out loud here. What if the 9 bar vs 14 bar is a one gene trait, and the pattern and scale density are controlled by different genes that are close in proximity to the 9 bar gene, and most often, yet not always linked during recombination. This would mean that a 14 bar/higher scale density/tighter patterned fish occurs because a chain of genes are being transfered together, but once in a while this chain is broken (maybe because of the inclusion of another mutation, like the BD gene).

    I am sure my wording could be better, hope you understand what I am trying to convey.
    I believe you are right with this Rick. It is not uncommon to have tag-along effects with single gene mutations. Blue diamond and big poops for example.

  8. #23
    Registered Member Rod's Avatar
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    Default Re: 9-bar x 14-bar

    I would like to throw a few of my own thoughts out there with regards to snakeskin genetics. There is an extremely rare variety of discus called the hairline discus, or sometimes the 21 bar discus. These are produced by breeding certain varieties of leopard snakeskin together and very occasionally you will find these available for sale in Malaysia. They are weak and slow growing, and my own attempts to breed them failed. My guess is they are the homozygous snakeskins. Some sort of possible recombination in a variety of lss could be happening in the hairline case.

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