Blue pigeon grow outs

[abijitr]

Agreed. Of the 10, there are probably only 4 or so without obvious deformity that I can see. There is one runt that should have been culled many months ago. Then there are another 4-5 with flared gills on at least one side. But the goal was a grow out for my own education. In the end though I'll probably only be keeping a few.

Can you please let me know why you feel like you should have culled a few that are deformed?? I am going through a major dilemma right now about a couple in my grow out tank. They are surely runts and go in isolation every now and then. I am not going to breed but it can happen ... It has been 2 months and these 2 haven't shown any improvement in size at all. I have thought about leaving them in my community pond which is perfect for them but then I live in Chicago and they are going to die in winter. Do I care them being runts and keeping them? No, but I don't want that to be at the cost of other healthy fish now or in future... any advice or suggestion would be much appreciated.

[modealings]

Can you please let me know why you feel like you should have culled a few that are deformed?? I am going through a major dilemma right now about a couple in my grow out tank. They are surely runts and go in isolation every now and then. I am not going to breed but it can happen ... It has been 2 months and these 2 haven't shown any improvement in size at all. I have thought about leaving them in my community pond which is perfect for them but then I live in Chicago and they are going to die in winter. Do I care them being runts and keeping them? No, but I don't want that to be at the cost of other healthy fish now or in future... any advice or suggestion would be much appreciated.

Well I don't have a lot of experience culling fish but here are some reasons I can think of for culling.

1. A lot of effort goes into raising discus. If you start with discus that are already deformed and/or have genetic flaws, you're doing a lot of work without the possibility of achieving the best result.

2. Deformed/stunted fish are likely more susceptible to opportunistic disease. While they might not always get sick, it's easier for them to become infected, harbor a proliferating pathogen, and then eventually infect the rest of your tank. Hexamita really comes to mind here. While stronger fish can keep it at bay, a runt's immune system may be overrun.

3. Breeding stunted fish is probably just poor form. Healthy discus have healthy offspring. Breeding and distributing stunted fish or fish with genetic defects probably just pollutes the pool. There is probably a distinction here between a stunted fish secondary to environmental factors and a genetic deformity. (I.e., could a stunted fish without genetic deformity produce healthy offspring with good potential?)

Those are the three big reasons I can think of. I'm sure others could contribute more. In my mind there isn't any harm to raising a stunted fish for your own interest if you accept the risks but probably distributing them is where it gets murky. Hope that helps!

[abijitr]

Well I don't have a lot of experience culling fish but here are some reasons I can think of for culling.

1. A lot of effort goes into raising discus. If you start with discus that are already deformed and/or have genetic flaws, you're doing a lot of work without the possibility of achieving the best result.

2. Deformed/stunted fish are likely more susceptible to opportunistic disease. While they might not always get sick, it's easier for them to become infected, harbor a proliferating pathogen, and then eventually infect the rest of your tank. Hexamita really comes to mind here. While stronger fish can keep it at bay, a runt's immune system may be overrun.

3. Breeding stunted fish is probably just poor form. Healthy discus have healthy offspring. Breeding and distributing stunted fish or fish with genetic defects probably just pollutes the pool. There is probably a distinction here between a stunted fish secondary to environmental factors and a genetic deformity. (I.e., could a stunted fish without genetic deformity produce healthy offspring with good potential?)

Those are the three big reasons I can think of. I'm sure others could contribute more. In my mind there isn't any harm to raising a stunted fish for your own interest if you accept the risks but probably distributing them is where it gets murky. Hope that helps!

Thanks ... yes, very helpful! I am not much worried about the looks but #2 is what bothers me.

[Ryan925]

Can you please let me know why you feel like you should have culled a few that are deformed?? I am going through a major dilemma right now about a couple in my grow out tank. They are surely runts and go in isolation every now and then. I am not going to breed but it can happen ... It has been 2 months and these 2 haven't shown any improvement in size at all. I have thought about leaving them in my community pond which is perfect for them but then I live in Chicago and they are going to die in winter. Do I care them being runts and keeping them? No, but I don't want that to be at the cost of other healthy fish now or in future... any advice or suggestion would be much appreciated.

I think it depends on the age with runts also. There is always going to be some in a group. I had two that were way behind but at some point hit a huge growth spurt and are now two of my largest

[adrian31@outlook.com]

Agreed. Of the 10, there are probably only 4 or so without obvious deformity that I can see. There is one runt that should have been culled many months ago. Then there are another 4-5 with flared gills on at least one side. But the goal was a grow out for my own education. In the end though I'll probably only be keeping a few.

Great job on the growout. RE: Flared Gills: do you know what might have caused this?

[modealings]

Great job on the growout. RE: Flared Gills: do you know what might have caused this?

Really not sure. I've heard of the short gill plate deformity in discus fry but not the flared gills. I've read that arowana can get flared gills if the current isn't strong enough but I doubt that's the problem with discus.

[modealings]

I think it depends on the age with runts also. There is always going to be some in a group. I had two that were way behind but at some point hit a huge growth spurt and are now two of my largest

Makes sense too. I guess because mine are all from the same batch I hadn't thought of that.

[abijitr]

I think it depends on the age with runts also. There is always going to be some in a group. I had two that were way behind but at some point hit a huge growth spurt and are now two of my largest

From what size are you growing out Ryan? Mine were 2 inches when I got and the 2 in question are about same size after 2+months. Others have doubled in size.

[adrian31@outlook.com]

Really not sure. I've heard of the short gill plate deformity in discus fry but not the flared gills. I've read that arowana can get flared gills if the current isn't strong enough but I doubt that's the problem with discus.

In the four orders of Discus I purchased over the past year, in three of those orders each had one Discus with flared gills. These were all from reputable suppliers/breeders so I wonder what causes this and how common it is.

[modealings]

10 month update:

I was going to wait until a year but I took a few out today to measure and thought Id share where they are at. I measured the 3 largest and of course the runt to keep things fair. If anyone has any input on what causes the gill plate and side fin deformities I'd be very interested. My water is >400 TDS and I feed a beefheart mix with a multivitamin so Im doubtful that its a mineral deficiency.

Here is what I consider to be the best of the bunch:
IMG_0999.jpg

Notice the slightly short gill plate and bent side fin on this one. Overall though I think it has a pretty nice shape.
IMG_1001.jpg

Notice the much shorter gill plate and again a bend side fin.
IMG_1003.jpg

And the runt. Has a deformed dorsal fin and significantly short gill plate on the other side. However I will say the overall body shape isnt as horrible as I was suspecting.
IMG_1004.jpg

And a quick full tank shot. I added some wisteria a month or so ago. Used the Alum sterilization method. No issues so far and the plant does seem to be growing.
IMG_1005.jpg

(If a mod wouldnt mind rotating the pictures when they have a chance it might save everyone's necks. This gets me every time...)

[Phillydubs]

Wow!!! I opened this thread and saw those measly little guys in the bags... then l cliked the last page to see what was new because I have checked this thread often and just WOW

Blows me away each time to think those little buggers turned into this. Even with all the deformities that you point out that I think most or the casual keeper would not see, you still did an awesome job here and they are gorgeous fish, well done!

[modealings]

Wow!!! I opened this thread and saw those measly little guys in the bags... then l cliked the last page to see what was new because I have checked this thread often and just WOW

Blows me away each time to think those little buggers turned into this. Even with all the deformities that you point out that I think most or the casual keeper would not see, you still did an awesome job here and they are gorgeous fish, well done!

Thanks! Yea it's been a lot of fun to watch them grow.

[Filip]

Great progression Eric. Discus look very good in shape size and colour .Too bad some of them have deformities .
I have the same age 9-10 month growouts in a BB with daily WCs and they got to similar size as yours.
I wonder what have you done with your suspected gill flukes month or two ago ? Did you resolve them and how ?
I'm dealing with similar symptoms right now and hoping mine will get out of this trouble .

[modealings]

Great progression Eric. Discus look very good in shape size and colour .Too bad some of them have deformities .
I have the same age 9-10 month growouts in a BB with daily WCs and they got to similar size as yours.
I wonder what have you done with your suspected gill flukes month or two ago ? Did you resolve them and how ?
I'm dealing with similar symptoms right now and hoping mine will get out of this trouble .

Hi Filip - sorry to hear about your struggles. I just ended up doing a few treatments w/ potassium permanganate and that seemed to clear things up. I did have one die so I'm down to 10. I haven't noticed the scratching in the past few months though. I'm also cleaning my aging barrels more regularly - scratching could have just been from ammonia build up there too I guess. Good luck - from your thread it seems like you're on the right track!