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Thread: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

  1. #1
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    Default Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    There has been quite a few debates of whirling, but non conclusive. I decided to take a scientific aproach to it. Collect at least 50 different testomonies better more) about whirling with detailed information so we can determine trough statistic possible causes (enviromental/parasites). It would be best, if everyone with this experience woukd fill this questionare.
    1. type (heckel/green/blue/domestic asian/domestic german/domestic local
    2. size of aquarium, bb/planted/biotope and filtration
    3. ph,gh, kh, T, conductivity,nitrate. how many wcs per week (in %)
    4. which kind of food (flakes/granul, frozen, FD, live) and how many feeds per day
    5. any treatment prior to whirling
    6. your treatment of the diseased fish.

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Mark Nealen

    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Line 3
    Can you tell me what is needed to test these water parameters. And where to get them. I am currently only using a API test kit.

  3. #3
    Registered Member smsimcik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    1. Domestic, Stendker via Hans.
    2. 75 gallon grow out tank, bb, sponge filters
    3. ph-7.4 gh-160, kh-90, nitrate- minimal, 75% daily water changes.
    4. Homemade beefheart/seafood mix. Al's FDBW. Angels Plus flakes.
    5. None
    6. Euthanasia.

  4. #4
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Personally I think you should focus on dissolved gasses..

    Al
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  5. #5
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Can I suggest three more?

    7. Water aged or not aged.
    8. City water or private well.
    9. Time of year.

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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    This survey is international. Most of Europeans have city water, so i felt it would be redundant. As far as aging and time of the year i know what are you hinting- chloramines/pH swing/microbubbles. Most of the water is also aged, but i wil ask that too. One scandinavian guy had this problem, he only did 30% per week. Whirling stopped when he added salt to his tank. The affected fish were Unini heckels.
    Mark N, at least Ph, hardness and T.

  7. #7
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    You should also ask how long they have had the fish.
    ..and where the fish came from(pet shop,wholesaler/importer.

    I agree with Dans item suggestions as well.
    Al
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    As far as i know its always one discus, who starts whirling then it spreads. If it was the water issue, all of them would start at approximatelly same time. I suspect it has to be a parasite issue- Cryptobia lubilans, Myxozoa infection from the live/frozen food or some other parasites.

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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    what if more than one discus have it but the weakest one shows symptoms first, followed by any others who carry it?

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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    The weakest will be always the first infected, stress and all. Whatever it is, its contagious and it always spreads, but not to all discus. Some may have had aquaried immunity. For example, one scandinavian guy had a group of Unini heckles. Bu only 3 got the disease and he cured it with a salt bath. As far i remember, Pat Husband had it (with Tefe and Unini heckel), the brazilian guy with Cuipea and Farebox, again with Unini.

  11. #11
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Quote Originally Posted by plecocicho View Post
    The weakest will be always the first infected, stress and all. Whatever it is, its contagious and it always spreads, but not to all discus. Some may have had aquaried immunity. For example, one scandinavian guy had a group of Unini heckles. Bu only 3 got the disease and he cured it with a salt bath. As far i remember, Pat Husband had it (with Tefe and Unini heckel), the brazilian guy with Cuipea and Farebox, again with Unini.
    I think its premature to call it contagious and assume its a disease organism. I honestly dont think it is.

    However, the best way to identify is send an affected fish to a lab.
    Al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

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    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    I think its premature to call it contagious and assume its a disease organism. I honestly dont think it is.

    However, the best way to identify is send an affected fish to a lab.
    Al
    Ex-President-North American Discus Association-NADA
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  13. #13
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Since we don't really know if the cause is animal or mineral, the data collected shouldn't discount possibilities. If you make assumptions and limit the gathering of information, you will get results that tend to validate your preconceptions.

    There does seem to be an association with WCs. Who knows, it could be 'Bends of the Brain' from nitrogen gas coming out of solution in the bloodstream. If its a neurotoxin in the water supply, I would expect to see a geographical factor associated with the use of pesticides or pharmaceuticals. These are just wild guesses, which is why collecting some info is a good idea... maybe our guesses can get a little better.

  15. #15
    Registered Member smsimcik's Avatar
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    Default Re: Protocol for determination of whirling causes

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    I think its premature to call it contagious and assume its a disease organism. I honestly dont think it is.

    However, the best way to identify is send an affected fish to a lab.
    Al
    Looking at this as a veterinarian, whirling disease leads me to believe it is purely a neurologic disease of the brain. The fish I have witnessed whirling appear to be having a seizure or something very similar to a seizure.

    Seizures are the result of an abnormal area of the brain which becomes hyper-excitable when exposed to some sort of external stimuli. In dogs with epilepsy, seizures can be triggered by excitement, fear, loud noises, bright lights, etc.

    With whirling, my theory is that the fish has a brain lesion caused by either an infectious agent (protozoa, virus, prion, etc) or maybe even some genetic abnormality. The seizure activity is then triggered by external stimuli (large water changes, dissolved gases, ph swings, conduntivity swings, bright light, etc).

    Of course this is just me speculating as a veterinarian and a scientist. I have no evidence of any of this but it does seem like a reasonable explanation.

    Al, you're right in that the only way to find out is to test affected fish. Many affected fish, not just a couple. It would take a pathologist a lot of time and effort to study a large number of affected fish to try and isolate the brain lesion responsible for the symptoms. However, there's not much financial incentive for a pathology lab to undertake such an endeavor.

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