Pinched Features, Wasting Away, What is This Disease Condition?

[DISCUS STU]

Hi Everyone,

Even though I've been keeping Discus for 30+ years I don't have a handle on what the above mentioned disease may be and I've lost a number of fish to it over the years.

I last treated a wild for this with metro in a separate hospital tank as I seem to remember that it could be Capillaria though usually I just let this run its course with death being premature death always being the ultimate outcome. Sadly there was no effect this time and I had to euthanize the fish.

Typically the fish gets skinnier and skinnier, loses color, the sinus and forehead assumed a pinched look the fish wastes away to almost nothing over the course of some months and it may affect one fish out of many housed with it.

This disease condition doesn't seem to have much to do with water conditions, food, etc.

Thanks,

Stu

[Kyla]

i've had a couple go this way. i put them down too. always assumed it was some kind of internal parasite or protozoan that didnt respond to treatment. the internet is great for all its terrible info... now i secretly suspect all my discus of carrying cryptobia, but im prob just paranoid

[jmf3460]

kyla I understand what you mean here, my fish have had every disease, parasite or bacteria that exists throughout their lifetime. Sometimes googling is bad.

[100fuegos]

Capillaria is easily recognized by the barrel type eggs in the feces, you will need a microscope for it though. I have eradicated capillaria in the past with Flubendasol, comercial product Kusuri Wormer Plus. In my case capillaria was accompanied with a badly infestation of flagelates but those were probably opurtunistic.

Capillaria will put a fish out of food in no time and will cause it to waste away as described by OP. Back then when I was fighting the outbreak, caused by a batch of frozen blood worms by the way, two of the most affected fish never recovered, never ate anything again and had to be put down.

[bluelagoon]

It may not be a disease at all.Maybe a nutritional absorption disorder of some sort,if it takes months/year.

[tolga]

Hi Stu, one of my discus have this wasting away condition. This is a heckel discus that I've had for more than 4 years and it is one of 9. I've tried every treatment but nothing worked so far. I'm thinking of taking by this fish to a vet to have it opened up and analyzed. This is going to be very costly and drastic to say the least, but I want to find out if it is something that could be treated and whether it could affect the others. I'm hoping that it is not the dreaded fish tuberculosis.

[DISCUS STU]

I've been trying not to go the microscope route and this would also need a feces culture, which may not be available once the fish has stopped eating. I would like to investigate the Flubendasol treatment as fish with this sort of disorder may inevitably die regardless.

[DISCUS STU]

i've had a couple go this way. i put them down too. always assumed it was some kind of internal parasite or protozoan that didnt respond to treatment. the internet is great for all its terrible info... now i secretly suspect all my discus of carrying cryptobia, but im prob just paranoid

The good thing about the internet is that if you're looking for something you have a very good chance of finding it, the bad thing about the internet is that if you're looking for something you a good chance of finding, or think you did. Chances are someone, somewhere, at some time will post something that resembles what you're looking for and confirm your suspicions, rightly or wrongly.

It reminds me of the time that I was sicked and looked up my symptoms only to discover that according to what I found I was pregnant!

Regards,

Discus Stu

[DJW]

Capillaria is easily recognized by the barrel type eggs in the feces, you will need a microscope for it though. I have eradicated capillaria in the past with Flubendasol, comercial product Kusuri Wormer Plus. In my case capillaria was accompanied with a badly infestation of flagelates but those were probably opurtunistic.

Capillaria will put a fish out of food in no time and will cause it to waste away as described by OP. Back then when I was fighting the outbreak, caused by a batch of frozen blood worms by the way, two of the most affected fish never recovered, never ate anything again and had to be put down.

I saw in an old thread where you scoped the frozen blood worms and identified capillaria. What exactly did you see?... worms resembling capillaria, the telltale eggs, or both? IMO it would be very difficult to make the ID without seeing the eggs.

[100fuegos]

I did see some eggs in the defrost water from the blood worms, but regardless it was the only thing capable of introducing the illness. At the time I was feeding my BF mix, mussels, Sera Discus granules and the aforementioned bloodworms. By now I have perfectioned my Bh mix recipe and feed that exclusively plus some FDBW I buy once every two years or so.

[brewmaster15]

Stu,

Worms are very possibly the culprit and why i deworm all new livestock when I get it. You can not tell if your fish has worms until the damage has been done. Capillaria is a common one and will cause wasting like that. One note from your post above...

metro in a separate hospital tank as I seem to remember that it could be Capillaria

metro doesn't work on worms....its anti protozoan and specific for some anaerobic bacteria. Levamisole would have been a better choice.


There are other things that will cause this wasting away beside parasites.. heavy metal poisoning from source water and things like freeze dried tubifex are suspect. These damage the internal organs to the point where they can not absorb nutrients.. Hormones can also do this, as can simply over medicating and overdosing medications. What complicates things is that these things won't affect all fish equally, the weaker ones are where you will see it.

al

[nscaplen]

Stu,

Worms are very possibly the culprit and why i deworm all new livestock when I get it. You can not tell if your fish has worms until the damage has been done. Capillaria is a common one and will cause wasting like that. One note from your post above...

metro doesn't work on worms....its anti protozoan and specific for some anaerobic bacteria. Levamisole would have been a better choice.


There are other things that will cause this wasting away beside parasites.. heavy metal poisoning from source water and things like freeze dried tubifex are suspect. These damage the internal organs to the point where they can not absorb nutrients.. Hormones can also do this, as can simply over medicating and overdosing medications. What complicates things is that these things won't affect all fish equally, the weaker ones are where you will see it.

al

Al, I know this is a very old post but I was wondering if you ever learned from Stu what was going on with his fish and/or if he was able to resolve it. I now also have a fish that is wasting away despite the fact it's eating. It also has stringy (not white) poop many, many times throughout the day. More often that not, when I walk by he's got a long string of feces. Based on the literature I've read (scientific articles) it sounds like it's Cryptobia iubilans infection - which apparently is nearly impossible to treat. (see https://www.researchgate.net/publica...uvenile_discus)

Only 1 out of 8 fish in my current community tank is ill. We've had him in QT and hospital tanks at least five times over the past few months, treating him with everything we've been advised...and the feces issue always comes back and he never puts on weight at any time. I've heard that Cryptobia iubilans is very contagious, although no other fish show signs of anything. I've got 4 new fish in QT and it's almost time to add them to the community tank - what to do???

Nikki

[brewmaster15]

Hi Nikki,
I do not know what happened with Stu's fish, but your fish does sound like it has more than its run of the mill case of hex. It doesn't mean its Cryptobia necessarily, but it could be. I think its a good sign that the others are all well and have not been an issue for you. Unfortunately the only way to know for sure if its Cryptobia is to send the fish to a lab for testing. Its a one trip though. I can put you int ouch with a pathologist that may be able to test the Fish. I know he was interested in Cryptobia but its been a few years.

The thing with Cryptobia is fish that survive it can recover, mostly and be reservoirs in a tank for future outbreaks.It not really something that can be successfully treated. Its a very frustrating Disease.

If you want to go over with me all the treatments you have done for this fish, let me know and maybe I can suggest something different to try. I would definitely hold off on adding more fish until you decide what to do with this one.

al

[LizStreithorst]

I had cryptobia in my Discus around 15 years ago. I ended up culling all the fish in the fish room and sterilizing all the tanks. That and my experience with Discus plague were the worst time in my Discus keeping history. There is supposedly a treatment that some said that works. It was only available through a pigeon supply house. I tried it and it didn't work for me.

[brewmaster15]

I had cryptobia in my Discus around 15 years ago. I ended up culling all the fish in the fish room and sterilizing all the tanks. That and my experience with Discus plague were the worst time in my Discus keeping history. There is supposedly a treatment that some said that works. It was only available through a pigeon supply house. I tried it and it didn't work for me.

Liz, I think you did the right thing there with Cryptobia. That medicine was probably Dimetronidazole. I haven't seen any papers that say it works, but I know it was reported to by some hobbyists . Problem is I never saw a report that backed up " it worked " with lab tests. Just that their fish "got better" Which really isn't saying anything of value.


https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/VM077

Treatment for a Cryptobia iubilans infestation is considered more difficult, and current recommendations are based on laboratory experimental trials. Part of the difficulty may be that the parasite seems to have an intracellular stage. Parasites are occasionally seen in phagocytic cells, called macrophages, which are part of the immune system and are supposed to destroy foreign materials by engulfing them. Cryptobia seems to be able to live within these cells rather than being destroyed by them. This can make it difficult to treat Cryptobia because most drugs are not able to penetrate the cell wall of a macrophage. Experiments run at the Tropical Aquaculture Laboratory suggest that these two treatment regimens may decrease the infection load: a) a bath treatment with dimetridazole (80 mg/L for 24 hrs, followed by a 80–100% water change, repeated daily for 3 days); or b) a bath treatment with 2-amino-5-nitrothiazol (10 mg/L for 24 hrs, followed by a 80-100% water change, repeated daily for 3 days).

Decreasing the infection load is great if you want fish that are asymptomatic carriers . If you want a cure, I don't think there is one there yet.

al