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Thread: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

  1. #16
    Registered Member Phillydubs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Is this the type of batch you would keep to yourself and raise, or just destroy if it wasn't a tolerable mix?

    I don't breed, never have... But you always hear the stories or gripes of bad breeders and bad matched fish and they get out in the world and cause more muddying of strains and what not.

    I guess I am just asking you approach on the topic and how you proceed or have in the past with ones like this.

    Would or could you give them to friends who were just going to keep them or something with the firm warning of hey these are culls or a bad cross that just happened?

  2. #17
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Phillydubs View Post
    Is this the type of batch you would keep to yourself and raise, or just destroy if it wasn't a tolerable mix?

    I don't breed, never have... But you always hear the stories or gripes of bad breeders and bad matched fish and they get out in the world and cause more muddying of strains and what not.

    I guess I am just asking you approach on the topic and how you proceed or have in the past with ones like this.

    Would or could you give them to friends who were just going to keep them or something with the firm warning of hey these are culls or a bad cross that just happened?
    Phil,
    Those are good questions and not easy to answer. There is a mindset some have in the hobby that its not good to cross strains and lines, that it does muddy the waters. I agree it can. But I don't subscribe to that line of thinking. 99% of whats available came from crosses and initially followed by selective breeding when a desirable trait is discovered. Its the same for livestock, plants etc. We'd all be keeping wild type discus if people had not examined any variations and crosses. Discus have shown themselves to be very genetically plastic... we have barely scraped the surface of our understanding of their genetics and look at the diversity we have.

    There is always the chance a cross will produce something extraordinary , also a chance it could be absolutely ugly and undesirable. Even among the No-No crosses like Pigeons X non-Pbs, useful and beautiful Discus have come out of those crosses when selective breeding is used judiciously. In my views, If we want to move the hobby forward a breeder must be ethical and responsible in any fry they sell...whether a cross or not. A breeder also has the responsibility to be truthful as to what the Fish is. If its a cross like this one in this thread.. this isn't a " Brewmaster Golden moon sunshine super duper alpha Centuri " Discus.. Its a Wild Green X Red White F1 cross aka WGXRW F1 .. That tells you everything you need to know. If something comes of that and its interesting and I work with it and refine it and it can breed true as expected, then I may conservatively give it a name to distinguish it. Honestly, thats not likely though.

    Would I cull them or give them away if a bad cross.. honestly I would determine that latter... I am not opposed to culling stock...whether a cross or not that is not healthy, or goes against the development of good solid stock that is desirable to the Hobby if the intent is retail.
    Oddly enough though even if they are not great and colorful fish as an f1, f2s they could potentially shine. Theres also the fact that though they may not be something that I could ethically sell they may be something I really like. It doesn't matter to me what "The hobby" thinks in this case. I keep the fish I have because I like them. Thats all I need. Doesn't matter to me if someone else does though I hope they do,

    If I truly want to understand these non-typical crosses, I need to grow them out and Study them, document them, and maybe breed them sibling to sibling to get my f2, or maybe back to the parent if thats an option.


    I can only tell you this at this... Its a LONG Road..
    al
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  3. #18
    Registered Member Phillydubs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Very informative and truthful answer. Thank You! Always something I pondered and I know the answers and schools of thought and belief are all so different.

    Thank you for taking the time to explain yours... As a lover of wild fish and a lover of red fish! This one has me on the edge of my seat for sure! Keep me in mind when they turn out cool and you need to re-home a few! HAHA

  4. #19
    Registered Member Discus-n00b's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Hard to tell you yet rick... but Theres at least one group that very pale and has a distinct dark patch on the forehead. Reminds me of a Ghost or Calico. The other looks '"wild type". I will know more as they grow,

    You can see the two types here...

    41.jpg

    al
    This photo is incredible! So much detail, nothing like discus fry against a bright backdrop of mom/dad. If you got some sort of Calico or Ghost that would be pretty cool. Any chance the dark marks around the foreheads could be pepper this early?
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 01-06-2019 at 10:12 AM.
    -Matt


  5. #20
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Discus-n00b View Post
    This photo is incredible! So much detail, nothing like discus fry against a bright backdrop of mom/dad. If you got some sort of Calico or Ghost that would be pretty cool. Any chance the dark marks around the foreheads could be pepper this early?
    Thanks Matt. Old glass
    It's very possible that will be pepper. I have never seen such distinct circular markings.
    Al
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  6. #21
    Registered Member Keith Perkins's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Can't wait to see what they look like in a month or two. I always loved having parents that threw at least two types of offspring, just upped the pleasure another notch or two for me. Thanks for sharing.
    President - North American Discus Association

  7. #22
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    I will try and take another set next week.... they are very healthy and agressive eater at the point so it will be interesting what they look like in a week.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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  8. #23
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Hard to tell you yet rick... but Theres at least one group that very pale and has a distinct dark patch on the forehead. Reminds me of a Ghost or Calico. The other looks '"wild type". I will know more as they grow,

    You can see the two types here...
    41.jpg

    al
    For sake of discussion, pure wild = Brown type

    Red white is a heterogeneous Snow white and a heterogeneous pigeon blood.......and there is always the chance on some hidden recessive genetics in there as well (ghost, albino, golden, etc)

    Offspring should yield

    Brown type + Brown type (or wild type)**
    Brown type plus snow white ( snow whites with some residual barring of different magnitudes)*
    Brown type plus pigeon blood (these will be the worse looking of the bunch, the culls if you will. IME, those are the ones with the spots on their head)
    Brown type + Snow white + PB (ahh, the interesting ones, and the smallest group of the batch. Wild swings in variance among these, but you seldom get enough of them to draw any conclusions, but they will be variations of red/whites themselves)

    * this batch in particular, although not necessarily beautiful fish, will be interesting in terms of watching the degree of penetrence of what is thought to be a dominant (snow white) gene on a Wild type phenotype. This applies to some of the other mutts as well, but it will be most obvious here.

    ** It will be interesting with these to see if any of the reg pigmentation from the red/white carries over into a brown phenotype (aka virgin red type). IME it doesn't. But I have never worked with a wild.

    -Rick
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 01-06-2019 at 10:13 AM.
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  9. #24
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Dang Rick... since you got it all figured whats the point in me raising them! Lol
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  10. #25
    Registered Member nc0gnet0's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Dang Rick... since you got it all figured whats the point in me raising them! Lol
    LOL that doesn't mean I know how they all will look, big difference between figuring out the genotypes, and the actual finished product.
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  11. #26
    Registered Member Jenene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Been off my game here for a bit, busy with life. Moving my first born out of the nest. Fun catching up to find this thread. I see I am not alone in my curiosity to see what unfolds here. Is the Red White one of your fish from the dining room tank? Love the pics. The dark background makes a stunning shot.

  12. #27
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Hi Jenene!
    Moving my first born out of the nest
    I'm not looking forward to that day here!


    Is the Red White one of your fish from the dining room tank?
    She is one of their sisters. When you guys were here this pair was at the foot of the stairs to the basement... I moved them into the laundry room where all the other pairs are.


    al
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  13. #28
    Registered Member Jenene's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Quote Originally Posted by brewmaster15 View Post
    Hi Jenene!
    I'm not looking forward to that day here!


    She is one of their sisters. When you guys were here this pair was at the foot of the stairs to the basement... I moved them into the laundry room where all the other pairs are.


    al
    Hi Al! Yes, time flies so fast as you know with kids. Try not to blink, that seems to be when everything happens. I swear she was three last week. I am not sure how a three year old got through college. I must have blinked.

    I remember them now. This is a great thread!

    Hope you and the family have had a great start to the summer. I am sure everyone is keeping pretty busy!

    (Kyle commented on the pictures too! Loved them.)

    Also thank you for your thoughtful answers to Phil's questions. Your point of view is honest and really gives me an understanding as to the thought process of experimentation and discovery with breeding discus. At this point I would never say never, but not something I would attempt any time soon. I love the fact that I can still witness it and learn through informative posts like this one. Thank you Al, and to Phil for asking the questions.
    Last edited by Jenene; 07-05-2017 at 12:42 PM.
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  14. #29
    Administrator brewmaster15's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Thanks Jenene ! and Kyle!



    Well today is a week latter and I had hoped for a very production photo session. It was very frustrating. The pair are extremely protective. Just kept herding the fry down to the bottom corner of the tank. I did manage a few interesting shots though..


    42.jpg

    al
    Last edited by brewmaster15; 01-06-2019 at 10:14 AM.
    AquaticSuppliers.com Freeze Dried BlackWorms and other foods your Discus will Love!!!


    >>>>>I am a science guy.. show me the science minus the BS

    Al Sabetta
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    I take Pics.. click here for my Flickr images

  15. #30
    Registered Member Phillydubs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Taboo Cross... Making a Frankin Fish and thrilled over it!!

    Awesome pic! Really looks like a mixed bag of fry... little of this, little of that!

    Should be very fun to see these guys develop! I love that wild too what great coloration!

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