New to Discus, Lots of Questions, Conflicting Research

[Winter]

Hi all. I've decided that I would like to start a discus tank, I have been doing a lot of research on the subject and it has left me with more questions than answers. I have been reading books on the fish, as well going to different forums and researching online. Unfortunately the only things that remain consistent throughout my research is that you should allow 10 gallons of water per fish and that you should start with at least six fish. I thought I would post some of the biggest differences here and see if I can get some feedback as to some of my questions and go from there. Sorry if this ends up being a really long post, I would just like the best start possible to limit any mistakes. Any and all feedback is much appreciated.

First thing, I understand six fish is the lowest you should start with to help with aggression and because they are a schooling fish. The question I have with this is some say to go with bare bottom tank, no decorations (which I understand helps with maintenance), while others say you should have some decorations and provide them with places they can call their own territory and to help them feel more secure. As you can see this is causing me some confusion because these two things conflict each other. Which brings me to the second thing, bare bottom tank vs a small amount of sand. While I understand bare bottom is easier to clean, if you have other fish in the tank (I'm thinking about German Blue Rams and Corys) would the small amount of substrate be better with what I've read to be the "clean up" crew?

Next, and the most conflicting information I've read about, is the water changing schedule. I've read a lot of people on here doing 50% or more daily water changes, which I understand helps them grow the fish big and fast. The books and some online research that I've done says that with proper filtration and daily siphoning of waste, doing 50% once or twice a week is all that is needed to properly grow the fish. I've read many heated discussions about this and was wondering why the big difference. Again, I understand growing the fish big and fast for the daily big changes, but is that the only reason? I don't plan on breeding and growing them fast is not important to me, them growing healthy is. None of the research I've done on this actually explains the need for the big water changes, except that discus like clean water, but this is where the other research says that daily cleaning of waste and proper (or over) filtration that there isn't the need for the daily changes. I don't mind having to do the daily changes if they are necessary, but would like to know the reasoning behind it.

Last, tank size. I would really like to get a 110-125 gallon tank. Some of what I have read says to grow the fish out in a smaller tank and then move them into the bigger tank, while others have said it's fine to grow them out in the bigger tank. Again, this is conflicting information. I don't have the space to grow them out in a smaller tank and then move them. If it's that much of an issue to grow them out in the larger tank I would rather just get a smaller (75 gallon) tank and make that their home. I only plan on getting six discus, if that makes a difference in the tank size issue. Also, I know it's best to get them all at once and from the same supplier (I will be going with Wattley Discus since I'm in FL and not too far from their location), but do you have to get all of one kind or can you get a range? I would like to have different colors, again no plans to breed.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Any information and feedback will be greatly appreciated.

[Second Hand Pat]

Hi Winter, start with this thread to help answer some of your questions http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...CH-THIS-VIDEO!. Watch the video, it is well worth the hour of your time.

To answer some of your questions what size fish are you considering?
Pat

[Winter]

Hi Pat. I knew I would forget something in the post, I'll be getting 3" discus because I do want to see them grow. Also, I did watch the above video yesterday. Like i said I've been doing a lot of research and a lot of it is conflicting.

[Filip]

Hi Winter and welcome to discus keeping and SD forum.
First queation about completely bare vs decor for hiding , my personal experience is that having no decor makes discus less skittish and always present on the front glass cause they got nowhere to hide .
Plus they can't hurt and scratch themselves from decor when they dart in panic , which they sometimes do.
With that said you can still use some decor here and there without any problems .

2. Sand is always dirtier than BB , no matter how thin the layer is . Its used solely for decorational purposes and never as a cleaner solution . There should be no argument about this question at all .
We just burry the trash under the carpet to make it less visible when using substrate or sand.
With that said , you can use a thin layer of sand for your pleasure , but be very diligent to siphon it daily .

3. Waterchange is the most important aspect and the main distinguishing feature of discus keeping that separates it from keeping all other freshwater fish.
Discus comming from the very acidic water have weaker immune systems then the rest of the fish and are more suspectable to bacterial counts and pathogen presence in the water .
That's why we have to change more water regardless of the filtration to keep the pathogen levels low and to keep discus healthy and thriving.
About how much WCs is optimal ? The answer would be the more the better .
The toughest question to answer here would be with how much WC can you get away with without stunting your discus or getting them sick .And thats a subject for an argument and many different opinions.

4. What size discus are you planning to start with ? If you start with 2 inch babies , your best bet for 6 discus would be to keep them in a 40 gallon tank for the first 2-3 months and change more water since its easier with a smaller tank .
You can start with a half filled 125 G too . and keep them that way in a initial months .
The reasoning behind small tanks being better for growth than big ones comes from the ease of changing more water in a small tank and discus being more packed and crowded together which enhance their competitive eating and appetite. Bigger numbers of discus I.e. more competition works the same way too , for enhancing veracious eating.

Good luck with your new journey and please post some pics when you do get your discus . Watley is a quality source for discus , just like all of the forum sponsors are , so be sure to check them too , before you make your decision.

[Second Hand Pat]

The information in the video is about as up to date as you can be. So to answer a few of your concerns this is what I suggest with three inch juvies. First at this size they will require large daily water changes and lots of food. This helps them to grow but also needs them healthy. The immune system of young fish is not as developed as adults. I would suggest filled your tank half way up and use sponge filters to do the growout process. I would also suggest leaving the tank bare bottom for now. The strains you decide on is purely a personal choice. Would also suggest no tankmates at this time.

Once the fish get to be 5 to 5.5 inches then we can talk about adding a thin layer of sand with driftwood if that is how you want to go. Any tankmates will need to under go a quarantine separate from your discus.

hths,
Pat

[Keith Perkins]

There nothing wrong with say a piece of driftwood and a couple of potted plants. It does define spaces that discus may claim as their own and settle in to overnight as well. The thing about the two items I mentioned is that they are easily movable for cleaning. You don't want to add too much to create hiding places where fish can nearly disappear, you timid ones will find them and you will see very little of them, they won't socialize well and won't grow either. Do yourself a huge favor and start out bare bottom to learn the ropes then if you really want to later add the sand. Tank mates are highly debatable, I've done it both ways and currently have none. As a clean up crew forget it, they produce more waste than they're going to clean up. If you want the variety in your tank fine, but that's the only good reason to have them. Keep in mind they do add risk of bringing something into the tank disease wise.

Water change schedule depends a lot on the size of fish you acquire. Bottom line the more water you change and the more food your fish consume the larger they will get. There's no short cut for this.

Tank size depends a lot on what you plan to put in it. I love 75's for 6 discus, just depends on where you plan to go with things.

[StarDiscus]

Hi all. I've decided that I would like to start a discus tank, I have been doing a lot of research on the subject and it has left me with more questions than answers. I have been reading books on the fish, as well going to different forums and researching online. Unfortunately the only things that remain consistent throughout my research is that you should allow 10 gallons of water per fish and that you should start with at least six fish. I thought I would post some of the biggest differences here and see if I can get some feedback as to some of my questions and go from there. Sorry if this ends up being a really long post, I would just like the best start possible to limit any mistakes. Any and all feedback is much appreciated.

First thing, I understand six fish is the lowest you should start with to help with aggression and because they are a schooling fish. The question I have with this is some say to go with bare bottom tank, no decorations (which I understand helps with maintenance), while others say you should have some decorations and provide them with places they can call their own territory and to help them feel more secure. As you can see this is causing me some confusion because these two things conflict each other. Which brings me to the second thing, bare bottom tank vs a small amount of sand. While I understand bare bottom is easier to clean, if you have other fish in the tank (I'm thinking about German Blue Rams and Corys) would the small amount of substrate be better with what I've read to be the "clean up" crew?

Next, and the most conflicting information I've read about, is the water changing schedule. I've read a lot of people on here doing 50% or more daily water changes, which I understand helps them grow the fish big and fast. The books and some online research that I've done says that with proper filtration and daily siphoning of waste, doing 50% once or twice a week is all that is needed to properly grow the fish. I've read many heated discussions about this and was wondering why the big difference. Again, I understand growing the fish big and fast for the daily big changes, but is that the only reason? I don't plan on breeding and growing them fast is not important to me, them growing healthy is. None of the research I've done on this actually explains the need for the big water changes, except that discus like clean water, but this is where the other research says that daily cleaning of waste and proper (or over) filtration that there isn't the need for the daily changes. I don't mind having to do the daily changes if they are necessary, but would like to know the reasoning behind it.

Last, tank size. I would really like to get a 110-125 gallon tank. Some of what I have read says to grow the fish out in a smaller tank and then move them into the bigger tank, while others have said it's fine to grow them out in the bigger tank. Again, this is conflicting information. I don't have the space to grow them out in a smaller tank and then move them. If it's that much of an issue to grow them out in the larger tank I would rather just get a smaller (75 gallon) tank and make that their home. I only plan on getting six discus, if that makes a difference in the tank size issue. Also, I know it's best to get them all at once and from the same supplier (I will be going with Wattley Discus since I'm in FL and not too far from their location), but do you have to get all of one kind or can you get a range? I would like to have different colors, again no plans to breed.

Thank you for taking the time to read this. Any information and feedback will be greatly appreciated.

Hello Winter,
I would definitely do BB Tank at first if you want to raise them from 3 in u have to feed them alot at a youn age or they will be stunned in there growth

[White Worm]

Bare bottom with young discus to keep it easy to clean. Maybe toss in a few potted plants. If you give them places to hide, they will and you wont be able to enjoy them. Adult discus are better suited for tankmates, substrate and decore. Clean water is used to fend off illness. Start with 50% every other day and adjust as needed. Your discus will quickly let you know if it is enough to make them happy. Feed messy foods and you will have to siphon waste and change more water. 6 discus at 3 inches in a 55g. Grow them healthy amd then move as adults into something larger. Keep the 55g for fry. I dont know how many times we hear "I dont plan to breed them" only to find eggs one day and......... when it comes to water changing, KNOW your water. I just killed 100+ angels this past weekend by doing a 90% water change from tap. I think I forgot the water conditioner as I was cleaning and changing numerous tanks at once. Half were laying on the bottom and the other half were gasping at the surface by the time I noticed. Moved them all but it was too late. With discus is is better to be WAY safer than sorry considering the financial investment.

[Winter]

Thank you everyone for your detailed answers to the questions I am having. To be honest, I never even thought about filing the 125 gallon tank only half way with water to start out, that is an excellent idea. I didn't plan on any tank mates to start with, it would be once the discus reach the 5" or larger size and any new guys would quarantined in my hospital/quarantine tank.

[White Worm]

The only problem I have with filling a tank halfway and leaving it for a period of time is possible water stain lines. When you go to fill it completely, it is sometimes hard to remove the previous water line from the glass. If you do daily wipe downs, you should be ok.

[Keith Perkins]

The only problem I have with filling a tank halfway and leaving it for a period of time is possible water stain lines. When you go to fill it completely, it is sometimes hard to remove the previous water line from the glass. If you do daily wipe downs, you should be ok.

You could easily add a gallon or two with each wc as well.

[Bizarro252]

Hi Winter,
I am a novice but I just recently (about 2-3 months ago) went through some of the exact same dillemas (except I didnt have room for a 125 lol) so I figured I would give you what I have learned from the first few months in.

First a quick summary of my setup:
55gal
6x 3-3.5" Discus from Hans
2x Ehiem 200W heaters
2x (stacked) sponge filters
1x Fluval 406 canister filter with an Eihiem prefilter and a homemade spray bar for output

Bare Bottom: IMO, for growing, its a must. I cant believe how much waste these guys produce and how much food bits (from homemade mixes or frozen pre bought food) gets everywhere. IMO a Eihiem gravel vac is also a must, you can submerge it, it recirc's the water through and removes the waste into a screened compartment to remove and wash down the sink - very very helpful.

Water Changes: The biggest reason most people seem to reccomend the smaller tank for grow outs is so they are not changing so much dang water doing 50%+ daily. If you do go with the half full method discussed above and use an external filter make sure it can handle the height, I think my 406 says not to let the water level be more than 7 inches below the rim - something to think about.
For a while I measured my Nirate daily, trying to watch how my feeding and WC's were affecting it. I do 30gal changes daily on a 55gal and I see Nitrate rise ~10ppm in 24 hours, so on a high feed rate I would not go more than 2 days if avoidable between 50%+ water changes. IMO it is also better to do large changes vs more smaller ones, since the dilution of waste will be more efficient with larger changes.
Check your tap PH right out of the tap and after aging (with a bubbler) 24 hours, if you see a large swing in PH, you should age your water.

Prefilter: If you have a power filter, run a prefilter, you will love it. I wash mine daily and take the canister apart monthly, it looks brand new in there. I think I could go several months and be fine, and will do so once they are grown and I am not going for the absolute best conditions I can muster.

Temp controller: I bought a Inkbird ITC-308 temp controller and its amazing, keeps my temp withing 0.3C of setpoint, high low temp alarms, etc. Love the thing. I would recommend the one with the probe permanently attached, I got the detachable one first and it was pretty easy to accidentally unplug it, plus it didnt calibrate as well.

Auto Feeder: If you work full time, consider one Its nice

Spray bar: If you use a canister, make one, it cost me a few bucks and works great to distribute the flow so I can have a lot of filtration but not blow the fish around (I aim mine at a 45 degree angle upwards, under water, makes for nice disturbance at the water surface for oxygenation too


I think thats about it, ENJOY, you will LOVE them

[Jenene]

Welcome Winter!

As you can see you have found the right place for advice. It will still vary a bit but the members, mods and admin here are the most passionate, dedicated discus keepers you can find.
After watching Al's video, you can also search the archives here for any topic you could dream up. Also go through and read the "stickies" at the top of each section. Those are earmarked as especially helpful. You will find every section packed with useful information from equipment to nutrition and everything in between. There are even cozy places to chat about non discus subjects from beer to raising chickens! I even found the marine section and ended up starting a reef tank as well.

So not only can you find what you need to start a beautiful, healthy tank but this forum is world wide. You can make incredible friendships that you would have never imagined. Mine have changed my life. I have never been happier. Funny how these fantastic, round fish bring us all together.

This is also a great place to find support if something doesn't go the way you had hoped. We all get it. We are a big crazy, family here. I hope you are finding the answers and confidence you are searching for- I certainly did. I have a big, healthy group at almost my one year mark and I could never have done it without all the support from this great group. I am still stunned by how beautiful they are every single day. I never tire of them.

Good luck and keep us posted. I always recommend start a new tank journal in the journal section. You can document your journey at every turn. I wish I had. You really won't regret it.
Enjoy the process!