Lump with wound

[undel]

1. Please explain the problems with your fish. When did you notice the problems and did anything unusual happen that you think started them?

Several days ago a lump with a small white head appeared on one of my discus. I've seen "pimples" before and usually do a gentle scrap to remove them. Always healed right up before. However, I've never seen one with a lump before. I did the usual scrap and put him back. However, it's starting to look worrisome to me. It's been two days since the scrape and they usually heal by then. In fact it looks wider and redder now!

Here's a video showing the little guy in action. He's still lively, but I worry that could change. If I'm to do something about this beyond water changes, I should do it while he's still got some energy reserves!
https://youtu.be/N8ysG3Z0zZo


2. Symptoms (i.e. turning dark, excess slime, not eating, clamped fins, flashing, darting, clamped gills, white/yellow/green poop, hiding, headstanding or tailstanding, white on tips of fins, rotting or fungus, blisters/white zits on fish, bloated, cloudy eyes, wounds).

Lump in bottom/center of the left side. Wound in center of lump. Also, one smaller "pimple" on one of the spines of his lower fin has appeared. Dark/faded color (may be a result of substrate... but may not?). Possibly hiding a bit more, but still comes out when he sees me and begs for food. Eyes are a bit cloudy.
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3. What medications/ treatments have you already tried and what were the results. Include dosage and duration of treatment.

Scraped off head. Doing more watcher changes (1 every day instead of one on M/W/F). Fish is still in the main tank. I added 1 tablespoon of salt per 10 gallons to the water yesterday. Temperature is normal, and he's still in the main tank.

I wanted advice before throwing him into a hospital tank or doing medications.
If greater water changes can solve this without the stress of medications,
I'm all for it. However, I do have unopened boxes of Kanaplex, Metroplex, Prazipro, Paraguard, and API general cure on hand. I just want a concensus if any of that would even be useful, and if so, which is one is the most likely magic bullet.

4. Tank size and ages, numbers and sizes of fish.

165 gallons, 8 months old, 13 5-7 inch discus. 12 corycats, 2 bristlenose pleco, 15 cardinal tetras, 8 pristella tetras, 12 nerite snails.

5. Water change regime (What percentage and how often).

Previous to this, 50% M/W/F. Now 50% every day while he's sick.

6. How long has tank been running? Is it bare bottom? If you have substrate, what type and how deep is it?

About 7-8 months. It's got black Ecocomplete Substrate that is 1.5 inches deep. (Used to be deeper. Was a planted tank, but I'm transitioning it. All plants removed, and every week I scoop out a small amount of substrate with a ladle after doing a vaccuum of the top 1/2 inch of substrate. Possibility I stirred up some nasties?

Also possibly related: I was running two cannister filters on the 165. One was a fluval FX5, the other was an aquatop with a UV sterilizer. The one with the sterilizer backed water up into the motor a week ago, so I removed it while I order replacement seals.

7. Do you age your water? If you do for how long and what is the ph swing.

I do not. During the winter I did because there was a PH swing, but during the summer it's not been necessary.

8. Parameters and water source;

- temp 81.8-82.2 F

- ph 6.5

- ammonia reading 0

- nitrite reading 0

- nitrate reading 10-20

What type of water or combinations of water sources do you use? If it is an RO/tap/well water mix, please list percentages in the mix.

- well water 0%

- municipal water 100%

- RO water 0%

9. Any new fish, plants or inverts added recently.

No, however I have noticed that the non-striped nerites have all laid what I assume to be eggs on eachother's shells. Maybe it's a parasite? I am almost certain they're non-viable eggs though.
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10. Please tell us what you feed your fish and how often. This can be critical information for solving the problem so be as specific as you can.

I feed the 13 discus 5 cubes of freeze dried blackworms every day, as well as an additional 3 cubes of Hans Frozen Beefheart on days when I'm going ot do a water change. (So they get 5 cubes of blackworms every day, and 3 additional cubes of beefheart on M/W/F)

[Ryan925]

Wow I have never seen that on the nerite shells. I know they like to lay eggs EVERYWHERE though.

The fish may be dark from the sound but also the black eco really darkens them at all. I swapped mine out for that reason.

Hopefully someone will chime in soon on good course of action for that wound. Lots of clean water is a good start

[Kyla]

I would be very wary about removing the deep substrate while the fish are in the tank. I killed almost an entire tank of discus overnight when I dug up a small area of my deep substrate... I am not comfortable recommending treatment, but the eyes def do look cloudy.

[Ryan925]

I would be very wary about removing the deep substrate while the fish are in the tank. I killed almost an entire tank of discus overnight when I dug up a small area of my deep substrate... I am not comfortable recommending treatment, but the eyes def do look cloudy.

I did notice cloudy eye too. Could be related to water quality with the eco substrate. I deep vacd mine every other day thinking it was clean but when I removed it it was nasty.

As Kyla suggested I moved my fish to a holding container while performing the swap

[undel]

I would be very wary about removing the deep substrate while the fish are in the tank. I killed almost an entire tank of discus overnight when I dug up a small area of my deep substrate... I am not comfortable recommending treatment, but the eyes def do look cloudy.

I'm thinking your recommendation is wise. I'm going to cease my ladle method and will remove the gravel all in one go sometime in the future, after everyone's recovered. (with fish in another tank!)



Any recommendations for what I should do now are welcome. I',m continueing with daily water changes and light salt in the water. If he should be quarantined or medicated, let me know!

I'm afraid to raise the temperature if this is bacterial. I have no idea what type of problem this is. parasite/fungal/bacterial/just a cyst?

[jmf3460]

1. The white dots are indeed nerite eggs. They will be all over your tank before you know it, but if you don't mind the look of them then they are not an issue
2. The fish with the lump does look like it needs some medications. Do you have a quarantine tank? Could you scoop the fish out and apply an antibiotic to the lump? If you have any betadine or antibacterial ointment in the house it will help. I would do this once a day for 3 days and see if you see an improvement.
3. His eye does look cloudy, also another indicator of a bacterial infection. This being said, I would treat this fish in the water as well, using Furan 2. This is a common medication that API makes and is sold at local pet stores and online as well. The furan will help with the eye cloud and the wound infection. It may be best if you can isolate this fish in a hospital tank and treat him alone. But if you are seeing other fish with cloudy eye, you may want to treat your whole tank.
4. DO NOT pull out all your substrate with the fish in the tank. You need to take the fish out and store them somewhere separate, scoop out your substrate, let the tank sit with filters on full blast for a couple days while doing large daily water changes, then add fish back once all clouding has gone and you have changed or cleaned your filter pads.

[undel]

Thank you for the advice. I was looking at it this morning and while he's still quite lively, the wound over the lump seems to be widening (the lump is not getting larger, just the area on it that looks raw.)

I'll get my 29 gallon hospital tank set up again. I do not have an ointment to apply directly to the wound, but I can get some Furan 2.

[undel]

He stopped eating today so I don't think he was improving with just clean water. Hopefully the meds will help! The 29 gallon barebottom hospital tank is now set up with him inside. I put in the Furan 2 in the water according to the box and applied neosporin to the wound. However, the neosporin did not stick well, so I'm not sure that it did much.


Because this isn't a cycled tank I'm going to need to do daily water changes to keep it from turning toxic. I assume I add furan 2 in the correct proportion to the amount of water removed each day rather than following the box's instructions? (ie: if I remove 20 gallons, I'd add in 2 packets of Furan 2, which instructs to dose at one packet per 10 gallons)

[jmf3460]

He stopped eating today so I don't think he was improving with just clean water. Hopefully the meds will help! The 29 gallon barebottom hospital tank is now set up with him inside. I put in the Furan 2 in the water according to the box and applied neosporin to the wound. However, the neosporin did not stick well, so I'm not sure that it did much.


Because this isn't a cycled tank I'm going to need to do daily water changes to keep it from turning toxic. I assume I add furan 2 in the correct proportion to the amount of water removed each day rather than following the box's instructions? (ie: if I remove 20 gallons, I'd add in 2 packets of Furan 2, which instructs to dose at one packet per 10 gallons)

This is correct Undel, add back the measurement needed for the amount of water you remove. It would be best if you could do 100% water changes daily and add back full doses. You don't want the added stress of ammonia to make this situation worse so 100% water changes daily or twice daily will be best. Make sure you aren't running carbon on this hospital tank.

[undel]

This is correct Undel, add back the measurement needed for the amount of water you remove. It would be best if you could do 100% water changes daily and add back full doses. You don't want the added stress of ammonia to make this situation worse so 100% water changes daily or twice daily will be best. Make sure you aren't running carbon on this hospital tank.

My tank is lower than my utility sink, so I can only get all but the last 4 inches of water out at at time with the python. I removed 80% of the water, filled it back up with 82 degree clean water + prime, then removed 80% a second time immediately after and readded clean water and prime again. Added 3 packets Furan 2 and offered him some food. No carbon is in the filter. I'm just running it with mechanical filtration.

I took some a photo of what he looks like now. The dark coloring was a result of the substrate. Once in the hospital tank, he returned to normal colors, but is showing his bars. I think the wound is looking a little better than yesterday, but still worse than the first post.
IMG_4144.jpg

Here is his poo. Not sure if it's supposed to look like this or not. I only ever really saw the "chunky" poo against the substrate easily, so I can't tell if this is normal. His diet was primarily freeze dried blackworms with a touch of beefheart before he stopped eating, which was very recent. (Spot the cat!)

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[jmf3460]

i think his poo looks normal undel. I am very proud of you for doing two huge water changes in a row. keep up with the furan 2 and the large daily water changes. he is showing bar but I think he looks promising. if you can, when you do the large water change, scoop him out, dab the wound with a paper towel to dry the area off a bit, then add your Neosporin as best you can, it will help to kill bacteria on the surface. but if you cant do this or don't want to stress him more, then I think he will be fine with just the furan 2.

good luck and good job

[Ryan925]

That's a really nice looking fish hope it recovers

[undel]

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Proceeding with treatment. I'm a bit concerned that this may be a parasite, simply because of how it looks in the water. HOwever, I'm having the toughest time getting a photo of the darned thing. He likes to hang out in the area of the tank where another tank casts reflections and the camera isn't focusing.

Basically, the wound is 3 dimensional, and some of the lighter bits of the wound seem to be poking out, almost like a pair of worms. However, it could just be ragged flesh? When I took him out ot put neosporin on it, the wound was more or less flat.

If this still looks like bacteria, then all is well. But if it looks suspicious, let me know. I do have prazipro and paraguard on-hand, but I don't want to overdo the medication for the wrong problem!

[jmf3460]

still just looks like an infection to me Undel. and it does look to be less red and irritated. stay the course

[undel]

Yesterday I ran out of Furan 2 and will not be able to get up to the store until tomorrow.

The fish was looking about the same to me.

I didn't want to get him off antibiotics, so I drained 80% of the water twice to remove as much furan as possible from the water. Then I added the braod spectrum Paraguard at the recommended dosage to the water, figuring that a change in meds was better than going no meds at all or leaving him in the Furan + ammonia water.

However, when I came down to check on him today, his slime coat almost looks like it's cracking. It only shows up in certain light. He also has a new zit near his mouth and his wound looks worse.

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Do you think the new meds did this and I should get them out, or do you think not having strong enough meds (furan) is the cause of the outbreak? Or something else?





Edit: Update:
When I took him out to apply neosporin, I saw that there were three "jelly" like clear blobs on his pectoral fin that were three dimensional. I gently used my cleaned nail to scrap them off. They came off without damaging the fin, and were "poppable" once removed. I don't have a microscope. I saw these "jellies" a couple of months ago as well, and removed them. I suspect they are a parasite, but don't know if they're related to his wound at all.

The wound itself looks larger because there's now a sac of fluid in the bottom making the wound bulge out more.

Upon closer inspection, the cracking appears only in certain light, and to my untrained eye appears to only affect the slime coat, as I see unbroken scales underneath.

Water is still at 82 degrees with daily 80% x2 back-to-back water changes.

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