Lump with wound

[undel]

The second day with paraguard in the tank and he looked even more grim.

However, after a day with the furan 2 in the water, he has less cracks in his slime coat and that odd liquid-filled "sac" that developed on the lesion is gone. He's looking better. The lesion is looking better. I've got 3 more packs of furan-2 coming from Amazon Prime, so there should be no more lapses in medication coverage.



He now has a companion in the hospital tank. My heckel cross had scraped itself against the driftwood a week ago, which normally heals very quickly with clean water. However, since his scrape he started getting pimples, his eyes have a touch of cloud, and his ventral fins got fuzzy on the end, so I think he could benefit from the meds as well. He is not nearly as severe as the turq was. I'm convinced now that this is all due to me stirring up some nasties in my genius "Remove 3 inches of planted substrate while the fish are still in there" plan. These two fish are affected while the others are not because they are the most prone to spooking of my school, and probably scraped against the driftwood, letting the nasties get into the wounds. The heckel is still eating well, and because he eats the blackworms, he's gotten the turq to start pecking at the food as well (not really eating, but he's at least intrigued again.) It may be me humanizing them, but I feel the turq is happy to have a companion. He's no longer staying in one corner and the two fish are always close together in the tank.



I'm back to being optimistic about everyone's chances. The paraguard downturn was upsetting. I'm thinking that the paraguard was severely irritating my fish, and caused him to shed some slime coat and the wound to act up. With 20/20 hindsight, I'm thinking that the fish would have been better served during the lack of furan-2 by just having his tank be fresh, clean water. Live and Learn. :-/

[jmf3460]

stay the course with the furan 2 Undel, throw the paraguard in a cabinet and don't use it anymore for this scenario. glad to hear he's looking up

[undel]

An update on the little guy.

The good:
His major lesion seems to have flattened, his slime coat issue is resolved, and he's eating again.. I FINALLY got a good picture of that white stuff I thought was a worm inside the major lesion. Does this look like normal healing?

IMG_4160.jpg

The bad:
He has a new bump forming above his head, near his top fin. (see photo). He also has several small hole-in-the-head marks. The former I believe was brewing for the past week or so, before he started getting better, but it's still upsetting that a new lesion could open up. If he keeps getting new lesions I don't want him to suffer. The HITH I'm not sure what to think. To be fair, I forgot about him down in the basement yesterday, so he went 40 hours without a water change, so I wonder if him being weak from lesions + water quality just made hole in the head pop up as a side effect. Poor little guy doesn't need EXTRA problems!

IMG_4161.jpg


I will continue with Furan-2 and daily water changes unless I hear otherwise. I have erythromycin on hand if it's better to try another antibiotic for the lesions.

[undel]

As an update, the lump on his head has started to erupt.

I am continuing with the Furan-2 in the water and and large once-daily water changes, but I don't know that it's working.

The neosporin does not stick well, even with drying out the wounds with a paper towel, so I stopped. Tonight I picked up betadine and dribbled a little bit of that into each of the wounds, then let him sit out of the water like that for about a minute while I used a plastic syringe to flow aquarium water over his gills. Put him back in and I feel like it washed right off.

He's still a fat, energetic fish. But he's now got two ulcers and half a dozen hole-in-the-head sites. I don't know that his first ulcer even looks any better than when it started! It's a little flatter, but that's about it.

He also has really really fluffy grey poop.





http://badmanstropicalfish.com/articles/article25.html

This site seems to indicate that it could be a gram-negative bacteria, which would fit with the possible stirring up of nasties I did with my substrate shenanigans. Should I switch to something like tetracycline, which I read can treat both gram negative and gram positive bacteria? (though furan-2 also indicates that it'll treat both types. Should I have seen results by now?)

[undel]

It's been over 3 weeks since I began treating him. He's about the same as last update.

The main sore on the bottom doesn't seem to be closing, but doesn't seem to be getting larger.
The bump on his head has a "head" but didn't erupt beyond that. Started two weeks ago.
Small hole in the head pocks, but they aren't growing. Started a week and a half ago.
Fluffy, fluffy poop. Clouds. Started a week ago.
Eyes are clear, and have been for two weeks.

He's being treated with furan2 and betadine (every other day on the latter, since I have to remove him from the water.)



He's not improving, but not getting worse. Should I continue with treatment as-is or try a different antibiotic? The fact that his poop is fluffy clouds worries me that he's still got an active bacterial infection.

I think he is losing strength, or he's getting used to me taking him out every day. He doesn't struggle when I remove him anymore.

[undel]

Update on the fish: Still kickin'.

He has not gotten any more bumps. The major bump on his lower body is still quite visible, but I believe it's finally healing. Why it's taken so long is that he actually lost a lot healthy, viable flesh to the bump, and it's taking a while to die off and fill in. I don't know if i he's ever going to regrow scales on it, but there's some incredibly thin patterning indication appearing, so maybe it's possible?

He's gotten eye cloud again, but no more nodules anywhere on the body and no new holes in his fins. I believe it's a water quality issue at this point, as the hospital tank is not a cycled tank. He's been living in Furan-2 for over a month, so it has to the be the water or bacteria that doesn't care about Furan.

I've moved him into a 72 gallon planted tank that has no other fish in it aside from a healthy colony of malaysian trumpet snails, and put some cycled filter media into it from my main discus tank. He won't have any meds, but the water there should be a lot cleaner between the volume, he fact that he's going to have some cycled media, and I also threw some purigen into the filter for good measure.

I'll see how he does in there before adding him back to the main tank. I'd like that eye clear and bump closed up before putting him back in the 165 with my other discus. Cautiously optimistic!

[White Worm]

I would find some betadine and use that. Apply directly to the wound and keep it away from the eyes and gills.

[RogueDiscus]

Al has also recommended swabbing external lesions with hydrogen peroxide, if that seems appropriate.

[undel]

Thanks for the advice so far. I did a swabbing regimen with betadine on the main wound previously on recommendation from jmf3460.

I had to leave for a family vacation for 8 days. (I'm back) Leaving him in the hospital tank would have been a death sentence, as it had no biofiltration and he would have made the water toxic in short order. I put him into the 72 gallon planted since it was isolated from everything else but the plants and MTS along with established filter media from the main discus tank. When I came back PH in the planted tank was 7.0, ammonia 0, nitrites 0, nitrates 20-ish, so it seemed okay... but he's not looking okay.

When I got back, his main ulcer that has been the focus of this thread seems to have healed even more. However, the pinpoint holes and nicks that were present before I left (but not doing anything) have widened. These are flat defects, not mountains like his original wound. On the fins they punch holes through. On the sides, they remove color from the scales, it may be exposed flesh, but there's no "topography" to it. His eye is slightly cloudy again. It's faint, but I was on the lookout for it.

He's back in the hospital tank with a 100% water change. The sides of my tank are a dirty, so I have circled what are actual defects so they can be differentiated from the water change bubbles and the water splashes on the side. The LARGE circle is his healing ulcer, which I think is improving.
21463328_10155869901466004_8325298534130266902_n.jpgUntitled-1.jpg

He's been in 82 degree water this entire time. Because his infection was likely bacterial, I read that you're not supposed to keep higher temperatures or it'll speed things up. Is this a good route, or should he be in higher temperatures to stimulate his immune system?

I'm unsure if what's appearing now is a continuation of what he had, or water quality issues. The hospital tank is not forgiving due to having no biofiltration at all, nor was the planted "vacation" tank an ideal scenario. I want to be frank that my husbandry while treating him has not been perfect. I did miss a few daily water changes (not consecutively) on the hospital tank over the past month. I'm not proud of this fact, but if it's a contributing factor to what happened now, it's worth mentioning. I have read that holes in the fins such as this are a water quality issue.

If this is all water quality, I can keep at it with alarms set so I have less chance of flubbing and forgetting a daily water change. Alarms are a good practice anyway. However, if its something that needs medication, I'll need some advice on how to treat. I don't want to use the wrong thing and stress the fish out with meds that will do him no good.

[undel]

I've been keeping up with 100% water changes every 24 hours on the nose in the hospital tank. Alarm is working great. His fins are looking a touch better and his main ulcer is still on the mend. However, he's got a new eruption near his head. I swabbed it with betadine.

I'm beginning to wonder if this is parasitic. :-/

Any advice appreciated.

[jmf3460]

goodness these lesions are coming and going quickly. I think this is more of an internal parasite now. do you have access to metronidazole which is an internal parasitic medication, also levamisole is another type of internal parasite medication that may do some good in this situation. simple water changes and furan 2 are not seeming to help after this long. to be honest I am surprised he has stayed with it this amount of time so far.

[jmf3460]

can you get metro or levamisole?

check with angelsplus.com

[undel]

Sorry, I didn't see that someone had posted!

History of the fish up until now:

• Fish had lesion appear in bottom of fin along with cloudy eyes.
• Moved to hospital tank.
• Treated with 82 degree water and furan-2 for a month.
• Initially did neosporin swabs on lesion alongside furan treatment, but switched to every other day betadine swabs.
• Fish briefly had a tank-mate, a heckle with a couple small holes in the head. Heckle recovered quickly, and is back in the main tank, looking great!
• Went on vacation. Moved fish to 72 planted tank with cycled media. Only other tankmates are trumpet snails in the gravel. NO MEDICATION
• Fish stayed in 72 gallon for 8 days. When I returned, water parameters were 7.0 ph, 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites , 10-20 nitrates
• Came back from vacation to pinpoint circular holes in fins.
• Put back into hospital tank. Treated for a couple of days with clean water, using an alarm to ensure no misses.
• New lesion appeared on head - behind the eye between gill plates.
• Swabbed lesion daily with betadine.
• Treatment with prazipro and sulfaplex for 7 days to help if this was parasitic, not knowing what else to do.
• During the treatment, I discovered what is probably a contributing source of my woes. The filter (which has no media in it and is basically just a water circulator) was full of brown slime. Since it didn't have media in it, I didn't think to clean it. It was a mess.
• He's been in plain, clear water for 3 days with water changes on the nose every 24 hours.
• The holes in his fins are closing. His color is really good. The original lesion is not only filling in, but starting to scale over! The new lesion near his head still a problem, but possibly healing.

Which brings us to today-

• Today while doing his betadine swab, I dropped him 4 feet onto a concrete floor. Apparently he's feeling better, because I didn't expect him to struggle and wasn't holding him as tightly as I could have. Feeling like an idiot.
• Fish is in clean with 5 tablespoons salt added to the 29 gallon.

Pretty mad at myself. If he was on the mend, the drop is going to create additional stress, which makes him vulnerable again.

can you get metro or levamisole?

check with angelsplus.com

@jmf3460 Thank you for the recommendations. I have both of these medications on-hand. Do you think I should still give it a try, or let him rest? If so, which medication do you recommend over the other?

Unless I hear instructions otherwise, I'm going to let him rest and recover from his fall in clean water w small amount of salt for another 3 days. I'm also raising temperature to 85 degrees to try and stimulate his appetite again. If for some reason he starts eating again or the lesion on his head is clearly closing, I'll continue to do nothing but water changes. But if any new lesions appear, I'm going to go for metroplex treatment.

[jmf3460]

i would begin with the levamisole to be honest. Metro is a milder treatment, usually used to treat hex.

[undel]

Thank you for the advice. His rest is going well, and he doesn't seem to have any new lesions. His main lesion is still closing, as are the ones on his fins. The one on his face is still worrisome, but seems to be doing the ugly-healing pattern of the first, in that it inflated, then shrank. He doesn't seem to have suffered for being dropped.

However, he is still not eating, and I discovered some translucent, whitish long feces. Dosing at 3grams levamisole for the 29 gallon tank. Leaving it in for 24 hours with lights off, per the instructions on loaches.com. I'll do his nightly water change after that, which should get it out of the water column.

The treatment says it needs to be repeated in 3 weeks to get any eggs leftover.


I was reading on loaches.com, and symptoms of internal parasites can include:

• White/translucent stringy feces
• Inflammation
• External lumps or nodules
• Necrosis (dead or dying tissue)
• Cysts
• Granulomas (which are a reaction by immune cells trying to wall off some foreign body, such as a worm)

Which sounds pretty similar to what's happening!