Swollen Gills

[Ryan925]

You could try a pool test kit that tests FAC (free available chlorine and TC (total chlorine) subtracting FAC from TC should give you an indication of your CC (combined chlorine/chloramine)

[Demosthenes]

Pat - there's no rubbing or flashing, just swollen gills and breathing too fast. I also forgot to mention that their eyes have lost their color. They aren't dark or cloudy or anything, just not red anymore.

Jacklyn I am in so far over my head... Still trying to figure out a way to convert my API ammonia test into a chloramine reading...or if that's even possible. There is probably some chemical formula that would explain everything but it's been a long time since high school chemistry.

THE BIG UPDATE IS: - I just did a 24 hr pH test, and the results are problematic on their own.
24hrs after a 95% water change the water in the discus tank reads 6.8! So now we're looking at a 24hr swing of about .7 . Could that explain the symptoms I'm seeing?
I also tested my aged, heated, and aerated water at the 24hr mark and IT IS STILL AT 7.6?! Does that just mean I didn't aerate it enough?

[Demosthenes]

You could try a pool test kit that tests FAC (free available chlorine and TC (total chlorine) subtracting FAC from TC should give you an indication of your CC (combined chlorine/chloramine)

I've been doing a little research, and it looks like Ryan's method is the only way to actually get an accurate reading for Chloramine.

Here's what I'm looking at: http://www.ibtbiomed.com/tech_corner/pdf/chlorine.pdf

First I learned that "Chloramine" is actually a name for a category of chemical compounds that includes 1 chlorine molecule bonded with either 1, 2, or 3 ammonia molecules. These three different chloramine compounds all exist at the same time in any given water sample. That's why an ammonia test can't give you a true reading for Chloramine - there is no set ratio of ammonia molecules to chlorine molecules. Although it did say that the most common form of chloramine in treated water is a one to one ratio, so my ammonia test is most likely only slightly underestimating the total chloramine concentration.

Farther down it gives this explanation of how to test for chloramine:

"There is no direct chemical method for measuring
chloramine. Chloramine is indirectly estimated by
calculating from the results of total and free chlorine. Since
total chlorine is the sum of free chlorine and chloramine, the
chloramine therefore is total chlorine less free chlorine."

[Ryan925]

I've been doing a little research, and it looks like Ryan's method is the only way to actually get an accurate reading for Chloramine.

Here's what I'm looking at: http://www.ibtbiomed.com/tech_corner/pdf/chlorine.pdf

First I learned that "Chloramine" is actually a name for a category of chemical compounds that includes 1 chlorine molecule bonded with either 1, 2, or 3 ammonia molecules. These three different chloramine compounds all exist at the same time in any given water sample. That's why an ammonia test can't give you a true reading for Chloramine - there is no set ratio of ammonia molecules to chlorine molecules. Although it did say that the most common form of chloramine in treated water is a one to one ratio, so my ammonia test is most likely only slightly underestimating the total chloramine concentration.

Farther down it gives this explanation of how to test for chloramine:

"There is no direct chemical method for measuring
chloramine. Chloramine is indirectly estimated by
calculating from the results of total and free chlorine. Since
total chlorine is the sum of free chlorine and chloramine, the
chloramine therefore is total chlorine less free chlorine."

I use a Taylor 2005 test kit which does the test I mentioned above. It's pretty pricey for just doing this test though. You should be able to take a water sample to a place like Leslie's and have them do it for you

JUST DON'T LET THEM SELL YOU ANYTHING lol

[Demosthenes]

JUST DON'T LET THEM SELL YOU ANYTHING lol

I feel like that is only a danger if I have a pool... lol.

Is this free chlorine vs combined chlorine test a standard item for pool maintenance? My parents have a pool, so maybe they'll have a test kit. I'll ask them in the morning.

[Ryan925]

I feel like that is only a danger if I have a pool... lol.

Is this free chlorine vs combined chlorine test a standard item for pool maintenance? My parents have a pool, so maybe they'll have a test kit. I'll ask them in the morning.

Not really most of your basic test kits will not have the capability. Nobody will really perform this test on a residential pool although it should be done. It's a requirement on a public pool.

And believe me you would be surprised at what Leslie's can talk a person into...pool or no pool lol

[Demosthenes]

My parents don't own the chlorine test, so I'll have to stop by a pool store when I get the chance.

I definitely have a pH problem. Last night I skipped my water change (don't yell at me) because the pH in my aged water hadn't come down at all. I just vacuumed poop and topped off the discus tank with maybe 4 gallons of tap water. So here are my pH tests from this morning. The test on the left is my untreated aged water, the test on the right is the discus tank. Water in both tanks is 36hrs out of the tap.



The discus tank is holding steady around 6.8, and the aged water is holding steady at 7.6 ..... I don't understand this. I thought after the first 24hrs that maybe the issue was lack of aeration, so I made some adjustments and here's my aging tank. That should be plenty of aeration, and it's been like that for 12 hrs with no change whatsoever in pH. Remember that in the discus tank after 12hrs the pH had already started coming down.



I'm at a loss. How do I get the pH in the aging tank to match the pH in the discus tank?? What is causing the pH to drop in the one and not the other? There is nothing in the discus tank - just fish, sponge filters, and a mesh bag of fluval biomax. The only thing I've added to the water is Prime, which says it doesn't affect pH.

[Demosthenes]

I just did a 30% change with tap to minimize the swing. I figured why bother with the aged water when the pH is still wrong? Nitrates after the change are somewhere between 5 and 10 - keeping a close eye on that since I've cut back water changes. I'm not going to do more than 30% daily changes until I can figure out how to get the pH to match.

I also created a spreadsheet for tracking the pH. The first tab is readings from the discus tank, the second is the aging tank.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...xwY/edit#gid=0

[Pardal]

Demosthenes
I want to give you my opinion, stables conditions , stable conditions,. Do always the same Discus like stable conditions above everything. Aged your water and treat it with either Prime or Safe (powder form of Prime).
When you clear that out , If the problem persist, the second culprit is Flukes, ( the gift that keeps giving when it comes to Discus). for that I use either CLOUT, or perform a PP bath
I am not feel comfortable suggesting the later as if you are not familiar can kill your fish. but clout is relative safe and it comes with 100 tabs. notice that I said once you clear your water situation .
I have been keeping Discus with good success since 2000, but when I have an issue, that gives me a headache . I call either Kenny's or AL's . I also listen to what Pat's says a lot .
Is kind of the Doctor that don't want to perform surgery in their own family kind of thing.

[Demosthenes]

Demosthenes
I want to give you my opinion, stables conditions , stable conditions,. Do always the same Discus like stable conditions above everything. Aged your water and treat it with either Prime or Safe (powder form of Prime).

Thanks for jumping in Pardal. I don't know if you read every word... it's a long thread so I understand if you didn't. I think you're right about stability, but I'm struggling because I can't get a consistent pH. I've had water aging and aerating for 36 hrs and the pH is still 7.6 vs the tank's 6.8 . I'm stuck at this point just doing small water changes to reduce the swing, but I know that's not a good solution long term.

Does anyone have any thoughts on why the pH in my aging tank still doesn't match the discus tank?

[Pardal]

I add this article is not too deep in water works but still decent . the bottom line is stay cool and maintain stable conditions.
https://www.fishlore.com/Articles/PHArticle.htm

The food, the metabolism products of your fish, the plants during the day time. all this made your ph different and lower from your aged water which is " sort of free" or living things.
your fish will get adapted to that swing , also ph going up is not that bad , that is why we can get by with the salt water bath without killing the fish.
remember what I said about Clout when my fry start acting out, breathing heavily sometimes there are about 100 of these guys.
the sale pitch goes when in doubt CLOUT it out!.

[Demosthenes]

Julian, are you saying that a daily swing of around .8 pH would not cause the symptoms I'm seeing?

[Pardal]

Ph is exponential. so yes the swing is substantial somewhat the danger on ph swings are of the SPEED of how FAST occurred not in the number. . But I don't think that is the reason for your symptoms or better yet the main reason remember how your problems start with a bad filter.
In my opinion people pay way too much attention to ph with discus, another thing that can cause your ph swings is low KH something extremely rare in city water. Serious discus keepers watch more the GH, and KH.
In your case watch your KH which is the buffer that will maintain your ph stable. also check your city water if is raining too much lately in Philly, cities tend to add more chloramines honestly at this point, don't know what to tell you. I still think is the gift that keeps giving the flukes . Sorry I just tried to help ,but is an enigma to me . I will call Al .

[Demosthenes]

Ph is exponential. so yes the swing is substantial somewhat. But I don't think that is the reason for your symptoms or better yet the main reason remember how your problems start with a bad filter.
In my opinion people pay way too much attention to ph with discus, another thing that can cause your ph swings is low KH something extremely rare in city water. Serious discus keepers watch more the GH, and KH.
In your case watch your KH which is the buffer that will maintain your ph stable. also check your city water if is raining too much lately in Philly, cities tend to add more chloramines honestly at this point, don't know what to tell you. I still think is the gift that keeps giving the flukes . Sorry I just tried to help ,but is an enigma to me . I will call Al .

Ok, thanks for your input Julian. I doubt my hardness is anything other than "way too high." It's entirely possible that the chloramines are fluctuating beyond what's being covered by my water treatment. It has been very hot and massive downpours almost every day for what feels like all summer. At least my tomatoes are loving it...

I did PM Al last night asking him to have a gander at this thread. I have zero confidence reaching for meds at this point - I don't want to make things worse.

[Demosthenes]

I have new symptoms...
I noticed some clear gelatinous looking poop on the aquarium floor. It isn't white or stringy, it's solid and looks like mostly clear jelly. Not sure which fish it's coming from.
Also - one fish has developed a white cloudy speck in its eye.

Taken all together, I think what I'm seeing is secondary infections triggered by either fluctuating pH or chloramine. Red gills, bloat, messed up poop, and a cloudy eye says bacteria to me, but I don't know if there's a parasite that would also explain it. Although I wonder - if the issue is chloramine... wouldn't that have kept the tank mostly free of bacteria? Isn't that kindof the whole point of chloramine?

I've been able to keep the pH steady the last few days by reducing my water changes, and I think the fish are appreciating it, but it's hard to tell. Should I just stay the course and see if more stable conditions and treating the water for a higher dose of chloramines clears things up? Or should I try to treat the secondary infections? Maybe another round of salt?