Swollen Gills

[Ryan925]

Thanks for your comment. You're backing up what I was already thinking, and it's nice to have the reassurance. I'm doing 95% changes daily, making sure to stay under 24hrs so the Prime is still live by the time I re-dose. And yes, I was thinking that the Ammonia reading is not exceptionally high. I'm double dosing prime to ensure it covers up to 2ppm chloramine.

Before adding the meth blue I was seeing nirtrates climb to 20-25ppm within 24hrs, so I know I had functioning BB then. I know meth blue sometimes kills BB and sometimes doesn't.... I guess I'm just one of the unlucky ones.

I'm starting to try to think of an exit strategy though... I can't just keep them in salt for 6 weeks while the tank cycles. I was thinking of using Tetra Safe Start, but I read that dechlorinators kill Safe Start, so that won't work.

I've had great experience with stability and prime will not have an adverse effect on it

[brewmaster15]

Thanks for your comment. You're backing up what I was already thinking, and it's nice to have the reassurance. I'm doing 95% changes daily, making sure to stay under 24hrs so the Prime is still live by the time I re-dose. And yes, I was thinking that the Ammonia reading is not exceptionally high. I'm double dosing prime to ensure it covers up to 2ppm chloramine.

Before adding the meth blue I was seeing nirtrates climb to 20-25ppm within 24hrs, so I know I had functioning BB then. I know meth blue sometimes kills BB and sometimes doesn't.... I guess I'm just one of the unlucky ones.

I'm starting to try to think of an exit strategy though... I can't just keep them in salt for 6 weeks while the tank cycles. I was thinking of using Tetra Safe Start, but I read that dechlorinators kill Safe Start, so that won't work.

Kesley,
Exit Strategy? Its been 48 hours. You really need to step back here and give things time. The idea was to go a few days and see how they acted, see how they were breathing,etc. Doing 95% water changes a day you really have no need to even worry about a biofilter at all. The methylene blue hasnt killed your biofilter ... you probably are just doing large enough water changes and have cut back on your feedings so much that its affected your levels. Any effects from methylene blue on biological filtration are very temporary.

The question here is do you see an improvement in the fishes behavior and breathing?

The rest can wait. The point of the meth blue and salt was to deal with the effects of a nitrite spike and prevent worse symptoms should it still be spiking.

Sometimes we get to the point where we over analize our tanks and just make things worse by doing so.

al

[Ryan925]

Kesley,
Exit Strategy? Its been 48 hours. You really need to step back here and give things time. The idea was to go a few days and see how they acted, see how they were breathing,etc. Doing 95% water changes a day you really have no need to even worry about a biofilter at all. The methylene blue hasnt killed your biofilter ... you probably are just doing large enough water changes and have cut back on your feedings so much that its affected your levels. Any effects from methylene blue on biological filtration are very temporary.

The question here is do you see an improvement in the fishes behavior and breathing?

The rest can wait. The point of the meth blue and salt was to deal with the effects of a nitrite spike and prevent worse symptoms should it still be spiking.

Sometimes we get to the point where we over analize our tanks and just make things worse by doing so.

al

Great advice. We all care for our fish so much sometimes we go in "guns blazing" and it's tough to just be patient. There are some very smart, experienced people on this thread offering you help (DJW & Al) so definitely follow their advice. Obviously no shade to all the others offering help but DJW is essentially our resident water expert and Al well Al is Al. You are in good hands

[pitdogg2]

Agree with the above^^^^

[Demosthenes]

Kesley,
Exit Strategy? Its been 48 hours. You really need to step back here and give things time. The idea was to go a few days and see how they acted, see how they were breathing,etc. Doing 95% water changes a day you really have no need to even worry about a biofilter at all. The methylene blue hasnt killed your biofilter ... you probably are just doing large enough water changes and have cut back on your feedings so much that its affected your levels. Any effects from methylene blue on biological filtration are very temporary.

The question here is do you see an improvement in the fishes behavior and breathing?

The rest can wait. The point of the meth blue and salt was to deal with the effects of a nitrite spike and prevent worse symptoms should it still be spiking.

Sometimes we get to the point where we over analize our tanks and just make things worse by doing so.

al

Oh yes, I'm definitely still following the plan we discussed, just musing about the next steps in the meantime. I like to be prepared, and the idea of coming out the other end of this with an uncycled tank and ending up back where I started was unsettling. I'm glad to know the effects of the meth blue are temporary.

Back to the question at hand:
The fish look ... better? I think they're breathing a little better and they seem more active, but it's so subtle it might just be placebo effect on my part. I'm still seeing swollen gills on a few fish and the one cloudy eye has gotten worse. It looks like the fin rot was nipped in the bud, so that's good. Overall I can't really say. But It's only been 3 days so I don't know how much difference I should really expect to see at this point.

I took this video right after my water change before re-dosing the meth blue, so you can see them a little better than when the water is deep dark blue. They're still kindof just.... meh.

[JamesW]

Normal dechlorinator is typically a sulfite based reductant. Prime or chloramine/ammonia blockers presumably include a metal or something else. Neither kill the BB in a bottle. The sequestered ammonia is not available to them but as different bacteria use the nitrite as use the ammonia that won't hurt the nitrite bacteria from establishing. That said the sequestered ammonia is in equilibrium with free ammonia so is presumably accessible by the bacteria but in lower levels meaning a longer time to establish.

[Ryan925]

Normal dechlorinator is typically a sulfite based reductant. Prime or chloramine/ammonia blockers presumably include a metal or something else. Neither kill the BB in a bottle. The sequestered ammonia is not available to them but as different bacteria use the nitrite as use the ammonia that won't hurt the nitrite bacteria from establishing. That said the sequestered ammonia is in equilibrium with free ammonia so is presumably accessible by the bacteria but in lower levels meaning a longer time to establish.

Solid info

[Demosthenes]

It's been a while since I updated, but I'm still having issues. I tried meth blue + salt for a week, and they still just looked ... meh. A little bit better. I tried salt dips for the two worst looking fish, and same thing. Just... not quite enough of a change to be sure that I'm really seeing anything. But the problem is, I still can't get my water right, so I wouldn't really expect the fish to look any different. Even if the treatments are appropriate - they're still sitting in crap water and I can't figure out how to fix it.

My TAP water is consistently testing between .25 and .5ppm of Ammonia (Chloramines), .25 and .5ppm of Nitrites, and 5ppm Nitrates.
My tank water after 24 hrs is still consistently showing both Ammonia and Nitrites around .25ppm - which means the tank isn't cycled, or the sponges just can't keep up with the bioload.
I've been adding Tetra Safe Start and it hasn't made a difference.
In a perfect world I would run out and buy an RO system, but I can't afford it. Is there any other way to filter out nitrites?

I'm starting to think it might be time to move the fish to my 100gal display tank, cut back on food, and spread out water changes. That tank is better equipped to handle the bioload, so they could at least spend a few days of the week in water with zero nitrites. Putting them in that tank was always my plan, but I had hoped to get them a little bigger first. They are still around 4 inches and have a lot of growing left to do.

I just don't know... I feel stuck.

[JamesW]

What do you think about running a sponge filter in your aging tank? I know nitrates aren't great but they are certainly better than ammonia and nitrite.

I'm wondering if you are constantly adding ammonia and nitrite you might be better off reducing water changes and aging the water with an active biological filter in the aging barrel to convert the nitrogen sources to the lesser evil? Still do max water changes but only have the ammonia and nitrite have zero'ed out in your aging barrel?

[Demosthenes]

What do you think about running a sponge filter in your aging tank? I know nitrates aren't great but they are certainly better than ammonia and nitrite.

I'm wondering if you are constantly adding ammonia and nitrite you might be better off reducing water changes and aging the water with an active biological filter in the aging barrel to convert the nitrogen sources to the lesser evil? Still do max water changes but only have the ammonia and nitrite have zero'ed out in your aging barrel?

I had considered what you're describing - essentially setting up a cycled aging barrel - but I ended up just going ahead and moving them to the 110gal tank I had planned for their adult home. I'm still dialing in the new schedule, but it's looking like I can go 3 days between water changes without the nitrates climbing too high. The biofilter in this tank is also MUCH healthier- 12 hrs after a 70% water change I'm zeroed out on both ammonia and nitrite. So even though this tank has sand and some plants and more nooks and crannies for debris, it seems like the water quality is going to be a lot better for them.
Here's the tank they're in now: http://forum.simplydiscus.com/showth...110gal-Rimless

[JamesW]

Long term you are going to want to remove ammonia and nitrite from your water before it goes in the display tank. If you aerate your aging barrel just put a small sponge in there too. Ammonia and nitrite are much much more toxic than nitrate.

[White Worm]

I tried to read this whole thing but its long. I don't know if you mentioned it or not but do you use aged water for your 90% WC's? If you do your large WC's straight from tap, it could be as simple as too much dissolved gases in the water. I suffocate my fish if I do more than 70% straight from tap. Oxygen deprivation could be the problem. Age your tap water for 24 hours and use only that treated (conditioner and aerated) water for WC's. I've never been able to do large WC's straight from tap. I would double dose prime and still find that the discus were sloughing off their slime coat after a WC.

[Demosthenes]

Long term you are going to want to remove ammonia and nitrite from your water before it goes in the display tank. If you aerate your aging barrel just put a small sponge in there too. Ammonia and nitrite are much much more toxic than nitrate.

I think you're right it will probably come to that. It's just problematic for me to try to age that volume of water. I don't really have anywhere to keep an aging barrel - my house is a rancher with no closets, and the tanks are in the dining room. I can't have a big brute can in my dining room.... I just can't. So that would really be a last resort.

I'm sortof hoping that the water quality improves when the weather cools down. There should be fewer organics and much less chloramine in the winter. So maybe this is only going to be a problem 3 or 4 months out of the year. I can dream can't I?

[Demosthenes]

I tried to read this whole thing but its long. I don't know if you mentioned it or not but do you use aged water for your 90% WC's? If you do your large WC's straight from tap, it could be as simple as too much dissolved gases in the water. I suffocate my fish if I do more than 70% straight from tap. Oxygen deprivation could be the problem. Age your tap water for 24 hours and use only that treated (conditioner and aerated) water for WC's. I've never been able to do large WC's straight from tap. I would double dose prime and still find that the discus were sloughing off their slime coat after a WC.

Lol I totally understand - it's very long. I do not age water. I tested the effects of aging/aerating and there was zero pH change. I also don't get any microbubbles. Those two things lead me to believe I don't have a problem with dissolved gasses. So I just make sure I splash the water to aerate it while it's going into the tank. Knowing that there are nitrites in the tap water - I really think that's the most likely culprit.

[JamesW]

Sorry kesley, I must have missed that fact you don't age your water. This is probably controversial but I'd guess that daily 90% WC's with water that has ammonia and nitrite is worse than doing weekly 30% WC's. If the filter can eliminate the NH3 in 12h from a 90% WC then ~50% of their lives are spent irritated by ammonia and nitrite compared to 4h a week with 30% weekly WC's. Your discus probably won't grow to the same extreme size and beauty that we see on this forum but at least they won't die.